Hi All,
A friend living between Tortosa & El Perrello is in need of some urgent advice.  The position is that - like many expats - she decided to renovate and extend the property on her finca.....without obtaining the proper permissions and licences etc.  Not clever - I know.  We've already done the "I told you so" line. 

Following a visit earlier this year from the Agents Rural, she now finds herself facing a CRIMINAL court case next month, she sought legal advice and was simply told to demolish the building before the court appearance.........??????

If she does not appear in court on the day - she faces imprisonment.  She does not know what to expect, what the fines are likely to be and if prison is a real possible outcome. The woman is understandibly very upset and doesn't what to do.  Is there anyone out there who has gone through a similar situation and could maybe advise her.  I'm not even in the same country so am of little help to her.  She doesn't have any internet access so can't post herself.  If anyone can share any wisdom - please do.  She knows she has done wrong but doesn't know how to approach this pending court case.  She's about to lose the home she's struggled to build for herself but furthermore it looks like she'll be issued with a fine she'll be unable to pay. 

Has anyone out there any experience or knowledge to share?

Is her name Maddy, in which case my friend is on her case

Hi PaulH, I think we're on the same page.  Hopefully your friend is in a position to give some advice/support.  I imagine it's a very lonely place when you're taking on the entire spanish system with all its associated red tape.  Have you any idea what the likely outcome is in these scenarios?

It seems incredible that the authorities are not content to destroy your home but want to dig in the boot and brand you a criminal AND levy heavy fines as well!

I know every country has planning laws and restrictions, but I never thought such callous punitive measures could be employed by an EU member state in the 21st century.  As bad as Ireland is (and it is bad!), they would never be so threatening. 

Furthermore, these measure don't seem to be implemented throughout Spain, it seems to be mainly in southern Catalunya and in parts of Andalucia.  I've never heard of this happening say in other areas.

Everyone of us has a vested interest in putting a stop to this madness, the way things are going - the spanish government could at any time decide to introduce rediculous retrospective planning laws which could result in none of our properties being "safe" - be they in urban or rural areas.  Buildings that were ok and legal in the past can with a stroke of the pen be rendered illegal and be pulled down. 

Surely whats required now is for the powers that be to allow an amnesty on existing dewllings and restrict building/development from a specific future date so that people know the risks they are taking if they contravene the law. 

The Spanish/Catalans always displayed a healthy disregard for officialdom in the past and simply went ahead and build/renovated their properties.  I know I entertained the thought of adding a roof terrace to my townhouse but when I checked with the ajuntament - was told that they would not give permission.  My Catalan neighbours told me to go ahead and do it - everyone does it.  Needless to say I didn't bother and am glad I didn't. 

I'd love to know how many people are affected by the current clamp-down.  I'm sure there are many out there in similar positions.  Hopefully people will let their voices be heard.  The cedula situation in the Campo is crazy and can't go on. 

wrote on May 25^th, 2010 at 8:43pm:

It seems incredible that the authorities are not content to destroy your home but want to dig in the boot and brand you a criminal AND levy heavy fines as well! Buildings that were ok and legal in the past can with a stroke of the pen be rendered illegal and be pulled down.

What I cannot understand is how anyone's home can be taken away from them in this day and age.  Surely it must be illegal in Europe to put people onto the streets, so why do our MEP's get onto this situation and demand that it is sorted out.  It must be against that most popular legislation, Human rights, to take someone's home away.  Surely the most basic of these must be the right to a home ?

I imagine that if I bought a piece of rural land in the UK and built a house on it or renovated something already there without asking permissions/town halls/Architects/authorities!

The outcome would be exactly the same.............no?

So why does everybody think they can do it here.

As I've said before, this is Spain/Catalunya not Guatemala.

So if you screw the laws, you get screwed back

Jools

Direct advice soon on its way to her. There is some confusion as to the exact charges and needs consultation, there appears to be something about vehicles dumped on the land. Somebody seems to have a grudge.

Jools, while I totally agree with your general opinion, I can't help buy feel sorry for such severe punishment being meeted out by the authorities.  Surely in the UK, people don't get thrown in prision for planning violations?  Yes, it is conveivable that the property can be seized and/or demolished but to impose huge fines and incarcerate people? 

But I think we're missing the main point - who's to say that down the line other laws will be enacted rendering currently legal properties illegal. 

I don't think those of us who try to keep our transactions above board can afford to be smug cos anything can happen in the future.

The estate agents/solicitors/notarios etc. who willingly took money from naive buyers surely have a case to answer as well.  Most buyers make it clear at the outset that their intention when buying fincas is to live on the properties.  I don't believe that in all cases that those involved made it crystal clear to these buyers that it would not be possible to do so.

It's not just Brits losing out, there are plenty of Catalans nad Spanish as well. Unfortunately as there has been so much building, the authorities are only now getting chance to move. Primarily due to the amount of black money flying about. This is clearly impacting the economy and the government want it back. Believe it or not there are Catalans in Sympatica that cannot get the building licences.

This mayor is the tip of a very large iceberg.

http://www.almanzora-au.org/PressReleases/sept%202009/sorbas%20mayor%20accused%20%20110909.pdf

The threat of a prison sentence seems to be a scare tactic, they have used that before on numerous occasions, recently last year when they threatened to demolish, fine and imprison the owners of 3 illegal builds, including a token Spanish owner.

We helped a Dutch family last year, who were also threatened with a prison sentence, but they haven't even been fined, it was blown out of court.

Jools   

Jools,
You state that these are just scare tactics being used,but now seem to be ignoring the fact that a house on the Delta WAS DEMOLISHED last year !
Do you know if that property had the correct permissions in place to build it ?
As has allready been said,the majority of buyers have been told by estate agents that the property they are buying will be able to be renovated and lived in.
This is clearly, now not true,but Estate agents continue to deceive buyers into believing otherwise,as they would not have hardly any property to sell if they told the truth !

I concur Fatphil.
I remember reading that the Spaniard who owned that house had been warned not to extend the building but had ignore the warning, He was given a deadline to demolish it himself but chose to ignore the order, So the authorities did it for him and he had to pay for it as well as a fine.

But Jools has already said that the  so-called "Estate Agents" are telling people all sorts of "terminological Inexactitudes"  (with apologies to Churchill  :)). It would appear that Jools is right. There should be some form of  licencing required in order to be an estate agent and buyers should make sure they don't forget their brains in the airport when they come over.

It all goes back to the same thing, why do people think that  anywhere in Spain, you can do as you wish?
Would you go into a bar in the U.K. and pay someone for a piece of land, house etc?  NO.
Would you use an estate agent, who offers you a solicitor, who is a friend or realtion of theirs? NO.
Would you start to build, or extend a property without permission. NO.
We used an independent English speaking solicitor in Tarragona.
He is even trying to help his previous clients, get cedulas that need them now.
Talking of which everyone here, seems to be in the same boat, with the cedula thing, be it Brits, Catalans, etc.

i think to solve all the legal and none legal houseing problems the goverment as to come up with a date and say all properties built up untill now will all be made legal and any after that date if built without planing will be demolished .we have 3 properties out off about 100 on our planes only ours is legal most off the others belong to the locals we have one other on the planes up for sale with all the paperwork but we cant sell it as it as no cedula and we also did what the rest off the locals did built one without planing (i say whats ok for them is ok for us)and as we paid building plot prices then why not.lets face it without people from  all over the world buying properties in spain and bringing a lot off money in then maybe the place would not be as it is .i think we should all be looked after now and not sh..t on as we all have spent a lot off money here............had my rabbit now off to do some work

I heard through the grapevine that the Spanish family only ever had permission to build an almacen, and that the case was dragged in and out of court for over 3 years, finally having the house demolished.

Surely this should be a warning to anyone thinking of buying a rustic finca in Catalunya now, and no, it's not because I have an estate agency based in Aragon, before anyone jumps in!

Only last week, a man who came out with me to look at property in Aragon 2 years ago called to ask if I could help him because he was in so much trouble.

After me explaining all the problems about building in Catalunya, he bought a finca of 1.5 hectares behind the hospital in Mora d'Ebre for 100k with a part built almacen of approx 200 m2.

A Dutch couple operating illegally as an estate agent/casa rural and building company sold it to him, and said that he could finish the house for another 50k.
   
He paid only 50k on the escritura, the rest in cash, and the building money in cash, because he was told 'this is how we do it in Spain'.

The house isn't finished, the 'builder' wants more to finish it, the buyer has 5000k worth of furniture here in storage because he was told the house would be finished by last Christmas.

My Architect went to Mora d'Ebre town hall with this poor man last week, to ask permission to finish renovating the almacen, because the Dutch guy didn't even do that.

They said that no more permissions will be given out, and all the surrounding chalets/villas/houses on neighbouring properties had the permissions in place before the end of 2008, which seems to be the last time you could build there (I dont know for sure, because we dont touch rustic properties in Catalunya for this reason)

The sad ending to this story is that the man has returned to the UK having lost his life's savings, and not knowing what the next chapter of his life will be, but apparently he is taking them to court for compensation.

He asked if I could sell the land, and at least get something for it, because it has mains water, but other than it being a vegetable garden, what is anyone going to pay for it.

If you frequent the car boot sales you will probably have been approached by this couple offering to sell/buy your property.

How many more people have to go through this heartbreak because of people operating illegally and causing so much misery............that's where the problem lies, they have to tell LIES to sell their properties.

I dont know how these people sleep at night, and if anyone wants their names send me a PM and I will gladly give it to you.

Jools 

Jools, I'd be interested to know the rationale behind rustic land in Aragon being treated differently by the administration than that in Catalunya?  After all it's all part of mainland spain and is surely subject to the same rules and restrictions?  How come a piece of land which stradles Aragon & Catalunya is treated differently depending on which side of the fence it's on?  Strange or what!  Is there any possibility that some of the refurbs/builds in Aragon could be declared illegal in the future? 

By the way - I wouldn't like anyone to draw the conclusion from my original post that I in any way support any form of Illegal activity, I merely feel sorry for some well meaning people cuaght up in an awful mess.  Personally I try to live by the rules - as far as I am concerned, I'm a guest of the nation.  On the other hand, some would say "when in Rome..." but when they did as the Romans do, were severly punished for it.

I am not allowed by the forum rules to go into anything to do with my business on here, but yes the regulations are different.

The famous saying here from the Catalans is that Catalunya is not Spain, therefore by the same token I suppose Aragon isn't either as they both have their own autonomous Governments and regulations.

This is why it always amazes me when clients want to employ a Lawyer from Barcelona/Tarragona or Timbuktu to buy a property in another country or part of another country, they just dont know the rules and regs.

You will be able to find our website if you look for it.

Jools

HI. reply to Nen, The problem with legalising all properties, especially those on campo is that by EU law all habitable (Cedula)properties must have services,IE water electricity.
Could you imagine the costs involved.
One way, is to have an addition to the escritura saying you do not want these services, then any future buyer of that property would automatically have to agree.
Terry.

I appreciate that I am going off subject a little here, but if a property in the campo does have electricity and water is it possible to obtain a cedula or is it just impossible to do so at the moment.  Hopefully as soon as Catalunya realises that this is having a detrimental affect on the housing market as the HIPS did in the UK it will change the system.

wrote on May 26^th, 2010 at 5:40pm:

HI. reply to Nen, The problem with legalising all properties, especially those on campo is that by EU law all habitable (Cedula)properties must have services,IE water electricity. Could you imagine the costs involved. One way, is to have an addition to the escritura saying you do not want these services, then any future buyer of that property would automatically have to agree. Terry.

hi terry we have water and ele on all 3 propertys and we have tarmac roads and wastbins and we pay land and house taxes on 2 of the propertys but only land rates on the third. maybe we should all refuse to pay the taxes and see what happens .

wrote on May 26^th, 2010 at 7:24pm:

I appreciate that I am going off subject a little here, but if a property in the campo does have electricity and water is it possible to obtain a cedula or is it just impossible to do so at the moment.  Hopefully as soon as Catalunya realises that this is having a detrimental affect on the housing market as the HIPS did in the UK it will change the system.

hi debbie,the answer to that is NO  :'(i am told no one can get a celuda .i think something as to be done about this people have payed good money out for propertys they can no longer sell i dont know what we can do but we must band together and come up with something before we all go mad

HI Nen. Would you believe we have neither and we still pay 62.33 a year council tax, we dont pay any land tax as the value is below 3€.
Terry.

I think that Spain makes these laws see how they go and then modify them to suit at a later date, just like HIPS in the UK.
You should see the law book regarding planning in Tortosa, every law has been modified at some time, they even admit they cant keep up with the changes.
It will change but when and to who's benefit is anybody's guess.
Terry.

Were all waiting to hear from Sue100, whats the verdict.

its all a BIG NIGHTMARE and someone wonts to wake up and put things right

hello everyone,i am another one with all the same problems,illegal building ,dodgy estate agent ,dodgy builder etc,etc ,how many of us is that now,must be quite a few eh!

Has anyone managed to sell a finca as just land even though there is a property on it? Is this possible?

I don't live there permanently now but I would like to suggest that someone organizes a 'sit in' at one of the government offices, eg. Tortosa or Tarragona. It is the only way to get noticed and get some publicity. Make up some banners with notices in Catalan and sit outside the offices asking for justice.
Give yourselves a name, in Catalan, try and keep it light hearted at first.  Do it on a couple of consecutive days until someone notices and the local papers do a write up. You need to get organised and this forum is a good place to start.

I have just spoken to the technico handling this for me, and was given the following news - which sounds good to me ;)

My house is urban, but the land it stands on is still rustic, so at the moment I am unlikely to get a cedula, however the man in the office at Tortosa who is refusing all rural dwellings is leaving/or being moved from his position on 5th September due to the Cedula application problems currently being experienced in the Tortosa administration area only.

This situation is not happening in other administration areas of Catalunya, only in Tortosa, which all Baix Ebre applications have to go through.

Therefore he is holding my application over until after the 5th September 2010. Lets hope this will put an end to the problems we are all experiencing with trying to get a Cedula.

He did state that as now, after the 5th September you will only be able to get a cedula on a rustic property that has never in its history had a fine or building work stopped pending fine, whether imposed or not.  I do already have this letter from my local town hall to state that the property has never been fined or had work stopped. This is NOTjust about while you have owned the property, but during the properties entire history of ownership.

I will update further in September when my application will finally go before the powers that be. In the meantime The technico suggests everyone saves their time, money and frustration until after the 5th September.

hi sue  :)best they move this man before the 5th sept then and let people get on with selling propertys.TO ALL PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEAGLE HOUSES and think everythink is in order please look over your ESCRITURA to see if you have the CEDULA.we went to put our house on the market yesterday only to find we didnt have one so now we have 2 propertys we cant sell without haveing a CEDULA .we like a lot of other people (AND THERE IS A LOT)can now not sell because when they got the ESCRITURAS all the paperwork need to sell wasnt writen in on it and people were not told they need the paper .PLEASE LOOK AT YOUR PAPERWORK AND LETS SEE JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT GOT THE CEDULA and were fooled into thinking they had just as we were .

Hi Nen,
The cedula is a fairly recent Catalan invention, and probably wasn't a normality when you bought your properties.
Even town houses need one to be bought and sold, not just rural properties.
My town house is on the market for sale, so when/if somebody wants to buy it, I will then have to get a cedula from a local Architect, at a cost of around 150 Euros, or the Notary cannot complete the sale.
My business partner sold a town house only 2 and a half years ago and didn't need one then.
Hope this helps.
Jools

wrote on May 27^th, 2010 at 3:46pm:

Hi Nen, The cedula is a fairly recent Catalan invention, and probably wasn't a normality when you bought your properties. Even town houses need one to be bought and sold, not just rural properties. My town house is on the market for sale, so when/if somebody wants to buy it, I will then have to get a cedula from a local Architect, at a cost of around 150 Euros, or the Notary cannot complete the sale. My business partner sold a town house only 2 and a half years ago and didn't need one then. Hope this helps. Jools

hi jools  :)yes i no that now but why can we not get this paper now if a house is legal after all we do pay taxs on the house and all we wont is this piece of paper so we can sell .most people like us just thought we could put or house up for sale with no problems BUT NO cant sell no paper its a disgrace

Sue -
Thanks for the update, many people have said that Agustí Bel Beltran (the head of Haibitatge in Tortosa) is being moved in October but a specific date is a new one on me and the fact your architect has more information about what will change is encouraging.

Whether this issue is just affecting Baix Ebre is debatable as the law is a Catalan law and according to many being implemented all over Catalunya.  The problem has just been more acute here because of the volume of properties built and 'legalised' in this way.  Like a lot of things in Spain it depends who you speak to and many lawyers, estate agents and even notary's are either still oblivious or lying to people about the problems getting a cedula.  Would you mind letting me know the name of the architect you're using either on the forum or via a PM?  Thanks.

Nen -
I couldn't agree more - it's a utter disgrace and defies belief that a law like this has been introduced when Spain is on the verge of economic collapse.  You can see what the new law says (introduced in December last year) here:
http://ceduladehabitabilidad.wordpress.com/latest-news/

Just had a look at this link, and is to me,  total and utter gobbledegook (now there's a good word). I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. I must be thick then...............

What are you struggling with Chris - the English or the Catalan?

wrote on May 27^th, 2010 at 6:55pm:

Just had a look at this link, and is to me,  total and utter gobbledegook (now there's a good word). I honestly can't make heads or tails of it. I must be thick then...............

well you must be THICK  then chris  :)it dont apply to you as you are only selling land and caravans but if you were selling a house a differant matter you wouldnt be able to sell it as we have just found out with our legal house when we put it up for sale :'(

Sue,
How do you know your house is classed as Urban,is it on the map that defines the Urbinisation areas ?
I am puzzeled how a Urban house can be on land still classed as Rustic.

wrote on May 27^th, 2010 at 7:13pm:

Sue, How do you know your house is classed as Urban,is it on the map that defines the Urbinisation areas ? I am puzzeled how a Urban house can be on land still classed as Rustic.

hi we have the same problem.we have papers from madrid saying our house is  uso....residencial ..clase....urbano and the rest of the land is rustica one paper says casa on another it says vivienda and on the ele conection it says almacen  :-/every thing seems all mixed up the local village put the land taxes up x3  ie.52e pr year to 156e the same on the other 2 we have from 8e to 24 and 25e to 75e we were told they had urbanized part of the planes but its not comeing up anywere to prove they have  :-/its about time they all got there act together as one dont know what the other is doing  >:(

hi everyone, will there ever be an organised protest or gettogether in the ebro valley area ,seems to me we are getting the p**s taken out of us all by the catalan authorities or whoever is responsible for all this mess,
i would like to know how much in euros everybody together has spent in the area from tortosa up to mora d ebre or further,it must amount to millions!
if you stop and think about this whole situation it is completely bonkers ,i have never in my life heard of anything like it anywhere else in the world! unbelievable doesnt even come close!  :-/ maybe all this s**t that is going on is normal for catalunya!   ::)

Like Nen 2 years ago I received new documents from the land registry changing the house from Rustic Casa to Urbano Vivenda ( I did not request them, they just arrived in the post). My tax rose from 13 euros per year to 351 euros per year. Thankfully, because I have 3 children here and was able to get the Familia Nombrosa and get 40% discount on this each year. (I knew teenagers had some use, now I know what  ;D).

So now I get 3 tax bills per year, one for the house, one for the land, and one for the rubbish collection, which we dont get.

Just caught the end of the advert for next weeks Watchdog tv programme on ITV at 8 o'clock,about Spanish house demolition.
Does anyone have any more details ?

It was a trailer for next week.

It is a BBC TV program  - not ITV

and on BBC1 at 8am ( UK time :) )

HI  Sue, are you shure it was from the land registry and not BASE, as it is base that you pay your tax to not the land registry.
We, in gandesa had a visit from authorities in Tarragona four years ago to measure our house ( rustic finca) and six months or so later we were all,Spanish and English in Gandesa called down to Base with our escrituras and a rough plan of the houses.people to arrive on certain days.
We were told,myself in English that in Febuary we would receive a letter with a number on and this would mean that our house was legal and we could apply for electricity and water, this letter did eventually arrive in febuary but two years later ( Letter 902S), together with a tax bill, back dated three years, with the words Residential and Vivienda on.
Has any other area been through this process as we were told Gandesa was the first.
We now pay 62.33€ per year,presumably for services,which we have none.
I questioned base as to why we pay no land tax and they said because the value is below 3€ for the amount of land we have (1.17H) we dont pay.
Regarding the BBC watchdog program possibly 5 mins if were lucky,perhaps after the program we should ask the BBC for a follow up featuring the plight that most of us are in.
            Terry and Sandra.

We cant see how one mans removal from Tortosa can change the law, surely the law still stands and the new man will follow that law,right or wrong.
Terry.

hi terry our letters  were not like yours we didnt have to go anywere it just stated what they  now had on record about the property etc.etc.

Yes, four years ago we also had the town hall surveyors around taking photographs and measuring, than had to take all our paper work to the town hall at a certain time and date to have them verified. Two years later only myself and one other neighbour got these 4 page papers from the Land registry not BASE changing the house to vivenda, urbano. I still dont know why we got them, or why only two rural properties out of 100's got them. I was told by the Comarc at the time it was something to do with the project to electrify the valley we live in, and if there were vivenda's without electricity then a lot more money could be got from Europe in the form of grants. I do not know if this is true or not. All I want is a cedula.

Hi All, In reply to Terry, we also recieved similar papers changing our finca to Residential & vivenda a while back. We thought it was because I went down to base in Gandesa and registered the property well over 2 years ago.We have been told that our property is a legal build (by English speaking Solicitor in Miami platja he had a look at the escriture for us when we purchased another property last year.) but have not yet tried to obtain a cedula. We are in the La Fatarella district. But as up to now we havnt had a tax bill, supose I had better go down to base again before it mounts the national debt up! :(
Good luck all
Steve

We went to our local architect last week to see if we needed a cedula, they said yes, every body needs one if you want to sell and to acquire it you need to also get five other items, listed below, the last one is the stumbling block,certificate from the Adjuntament.
We had someone (fluent catalan) go to the land registry and ask the same question, apparently the buck stops with him, he said no, we didn't need one, its all down to the wording of the escritura and how they translate it in Catalan.
Listening round it seems all cases are different, if you remember this was the problem with the CSA in the UK and their blanket law,no one was treated individually and no two cases were alike, eventually it was deemed unsatisfactory and similarly the Cedula law will be found to be just as unsatisfactory and impossible implement, lets hope it doesnt take as long as the CSA law took to change.
So according to the land registry we can sell without a cedula, problem is buyers will not get a mortgage as the bank requires a cedula to get a mortgage,( what are the banks going to do with all these repossessions) also we are told that even if we got a buyer the new buyer would not get an empadromiento issued by town hall without a cedula, this being needed for Cat Salut, residencia (that was another Joke), and numerous other things.
What a crazy situation.
                  Terry.
Has anyone actually gone through this process or are we all assuming that we wont get one.
when we first came over here seven years ago, we were told, "dont bother asking for anything because you wont get permission, so nobody did, they just built, the authorities knew what was going on and closed their eyes to it.

---

wrote on May 28^th, 2010 at 8:06pm:

We went to our local architect last week to see if we needed a cedula, they said yes, every body needs one if you want to sell and to acquire it you need to also get five other items, listed below, the last one is the stumbling block,certificate from the Adjuntament. We had someone (fluent catalan) go to the land registry and ask the same question, apparently the buck stops with him, he said no, we didn't need one, its all down to the wording of the escritura and how they translate it in Catalan. Listening round it seems all cases are different, if you remember this was the problem with the CSA in the UK and their blanket law,no one was treated individually and no two cases were alike, eventually it was deemed unsatisfactory and similarly the Cedula law will be found to be just as unsatisfactory and impossible implement, lets hope it doesnt take as long as the CSA law took to change. So according to the land registry we can sell without a cedula, problem is buyers will not get a mortgage as the bank requires a cedula to get a mortgage,( what are the banks going to do with all these repossessions) also we are told that even if we got a buyer the new buyer would not get an empadromiento issued by town hall without a cedula, this being needed for Cat Salut, residencia (that was another Joke), and numerous other things. What a crazy situation.                   Terry. Has anyone actually gone through this process or are we all assuming that we wont get one. when we first came over here seven years ago, we were told, "dont bother asking for anything because you wont get permission, so nobody did, they just built, the authorities knew what was going on and closed their eyes to it.

thank you terry for putting this info up :)and yes you are right what you say about permission to do things we have 3 houses one legal and 2 that are not (we think) as we have changed the house and land etc.but we have only done as all the locals did and are still doing we havent tryed to get paperwork as we are told we cant get it full stop . :'(

Hi Jools
Has the person that contacted you with the problem in Mora behind the hospital thought about contacing the Homes from Hell Programme.  I know they have been contacted by other people in the vicinity, if they have enought interest shown in that area they may look into it.  The more publicity this problem in Catalan gets it may save someone else from throwing all their hard earned savings away.  At present all publicity about building problems seem to be about Southern Spain, it need to be know that Catalan also has a big problem - mainly due to corrupt officials.

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wrote on Jul 13^th, 2010 at 10:26am:

From: "homes@itv.com" <homes@itv.com>View  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for your interest in Homes From Hell Thank you for getting in contact with us. We have received a large number of messages and it will therefore take time to reply to everyone. Please bear with us and we will be in contact with you soon. Thank you again for your interest. Kind Regards, The Homes From Hell Team ITV Productions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ITV plc (Registration No. 4967001) “ITV” is incorporated in England and Wales with its registered office at 200 Grays Inn Road, London WC1X 8HF.  Please visit the official ITV website at www.itv.com for the latest company news. The contents of this email

i sent a email to them last week about the cedula de habitabilidad problems we have here in tortosa catalunya so maybe they will look into it  :-/

Quick update - our friends that have received their cedula have a vivienda that was built before 1984.

HTH

JamJarChris wrote on Jul 13^th, 2010 at 2:26pm:

Quick update - our friends that have received their cedula have a vivienda that was built before 1984. HTH

Thanks for the update merriman, that's great news.  Sorry to keep asking but this is obviously really important for a lot of people desperate to sell.  Would it be possible to ask them a few more details, specifically:

- What town hall do they come under?
- Did they have an original building licence? (rather than just a declaracion de obra nueva)
- When did they apply for the cedula?
- What architect did they use?

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
- What proof was required by habitatge that the house was built before 1984?  eg confirmation from the municipal architect, a report by another architect, on the catastro before '84

I'd really appreciate if you could find out as much as possible as if 'proof' of the building being there before 1984 was something intangible like an architects report it could mean an end to the problem for a lot of people.  If the proof required is something more definite then it will still be a problem for the vast majority.

Thanks

wrote on May 26^th, 2010 at 2:54pm:

I heard through the grapevine that the Spanish family only ever had permission to build an almacen, and that the case was dragged in and out of court for over 3 years, finally having the house demolished. Surely this should be a warning to anyone thinking of buying a rustic finca in Catalunya now, and no, it's not because I have an estate agency based in Aragon, before anyone jumps in! Only last week, a man who came out with me to look at property in Aragon 2 years ago called to ask if I could help him because he was in so much trouble. After me explaining all the problems about building in Catalunya, he bought a finca of 1.5 hectares behind the hospital in Mora d'Ebre for 100k with a part built almacen of approx 200 m2. A Dutch couple operating illegally as an estate agent/casa rural and building company sold it to him, and said that he could finish the house for another 50k.     He paid only 50k on the escritura, the rest in cash, and the building money in cash, because he was told 'this is how we do it in Spain'. The house isn't finished, the 'builder' wants more to finish it, the buyer has 5000k worth of furniture here in storage because he was told the house would be finished by last Christmas. My Architect went to Mora d'Ebre town hall with this poor man last week, to ask permission to finish renovating the almacen, because the Dutch guy didn't even do that. They said that no more permissions will be given out, and all the surrounding chalets/villas/houses on neighbouring properties had the permissions in place before the end of 2008, which seems to be the last time you could build there (I dont know for sure, because we dont touch rustic properties in Catalunya for this reason) The sad ending to this story is that the man has returned to the UK having lost his life's savings, and not knowing what the next chapter of his life will be, but apparently he is taking them to court for compensation. He asked if I could sell the land, and at least get something for it, because it has mains water, but other than it being a vegetable garden, what is anyone going to pay for it. If you frequent the car boot sales you will probably have been approached by this couple offering to sell/buy your property. How many more people have to go through this heartbreak because of people operating illegally and causing so much misery............that's where the problem lies, they have to tell LIES to sell their properties. I dont know how these people sleep at night, and if anyone wants their names send me a PM and I will gladly give it to you. Jools

Hi Smitvelu,
Can't see your massage. Only your copy from Jools.
Can you send it again?

Haven't used them myself but click on the PRICES link and scroll down. This architect clains to be able to get illegal building reclassified as legal...

http://www.skharchitects.com/prices.html

they claim...
"egalisation of property hitherto registered as ‘illegal’. This involves a report produced by the architect and approved by the Catalan College of Architects. It is not always possible to carry out this process. Please contact us if you need to find out more about the legalisation of a property."


I hope this helps somebody. I take NO responsibility for YOUR actions or this companies actions - so do your checking first.

John.

wrote on May 25^th, 2010 at 5:10pm:

Hi All, A friend living between Tortosa & El Perrello is in need of some urgent advice.  The position is that - like many expats - she decided to renovate and extend the property on her finca.....without obtaining the proper permissions and licences etc.  Not clever - I know.  We've already done the "I told you so" line.  Following a visit earlier this year from the Agents Rural, she now finds herself facing a CRIMINAL court case next month, she sought legal advice and was simply told to demolish the building before the court appearance.........?????? If she does not appear in court on the day - she faces imprisonment.  She does not know what to expect, what the fines are likely to be and if prison is a real possible outcome. The woman is understandibly very upset and doesn't what to do.  Is there anyone out there who has gone through a similar situation and could maybe advise her.  I'm not even in the same country so am of little help to her.  She doesn't have any internet access so can't post herself.  If anyone can share any wisdom - please do.  She knows she has done wrong but doesn't know how to approach this pending court case.  She's about to lose the home she's struggled to build for herself but furthermore it looks like she'll be issued with a fine she'll be unable to pay.  Has anyone out there any experience or knowledge to share?

I have been thinking about your friend, just wondered how things were going and hoping they have turned out for the best!!

Hi Tezza,
I'm not really sure what the current position is - as far as I know there's been no fallout from the preliminary court case to date - fate hanging in the balance so to speak.  I'll be over there for Semana Santa so hopefully I'll know more after that.  My friend is still living in the finca tho, so they haven't been turfed out yet......

I have to say I'm a bit out of the loop here, has the whole cedula thing died down?  Another friend with an old village house applied last october for a cedula, I'll update on the progress when I get more info. 

Besides I'll have to check with architects about this new ITV for old multi-story houses, I'm still not sure if it's for all houses or only those with more than one residential unit, the numbers to be inspected don't seem to add up if all buildings have to be done.

Glad to hear they are still living in the house, it must be terrible having it hanging over your head like that tho...fingers crossed it gets resolved in their favour and soon.

With regards to the Cedula as far as i can make out if your house was built before 1984 then they are giving them to most people, I have got friends that have aquired their cedula without much hassle and they had exstended ilegally, but I'm no expert and only here bits and pieces.

Hi
How long do these cedula's last for i.e is it worth us getting one even we plan to hang on the place for a while?  Or is it better to get one if or when we plan to sell it?
Debbie

I think they last for 15 years!!

+1 - 15 years validity

wrote on Feb 17^th, 2011 at 10:38am:

Hi How long do these cedula's last for i.e is it worth us getting one even we plan to hang on the place for a while?  Or is it better to get one if or when we plan to sell it? Debbie

15 years but it can take as long as 18 months to get one and may cost you up to 500 euros depending on how complicated your situation is average about 200 to 250 euros though

Then again they may scrap the whole idea but until they do you will need one to sell a Casa Vivienda!! to live in full time

deffo needs a Cedula de Habitabilidad

Things musst have gone downhill, I applied about 15 months ago for a cedula and it cost aroung 150 Euros I think.  It came through in about 6 weeks.  Having said that - it wasn't a particularly complicated case.  A friend applied in October but none of us has been back since to see if it has come through - again I think it was about 150 Euros.  We'll check it out at Easter and I'll update then.  I guess it really depends on the complexity of the case.