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Help or Advice >> Building, reforming, legalities etc >> Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
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Message started by betty on Aug 13th, 2009 at 11:52am

Title: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by betty on Aug 13th, 2009 at 11:52am
We are currently renting but looking to buy a rural house in the area.  We have looked at quite a few and did like one near the village of Ginestar.  Have since been told that there is problems in the village and some demolition orders put on buildings.  Not sure if this is true or just scare mongering.  Does anyone have any information.  Obviously we are not going to commit ourselves until we have take legal advice but just thought we may get additional advice from people in the area.  We have approached some people but they did not seem to know anything about trouble we were only told by someone in the cafe in Tortosa.

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by Nigel on Aug 13th, 2009 at 12:20pm
If you have any doubt then go and talk to the planning people in the Ajuntament. They are usually very helpful and will let you know if your area is uban (in which case you may be successful with planning applications) or rural, where you are very unlikely to get permission to build anything more than an almacen, and this may only be possible if there isn't already al almacen on the land.

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by jools on Aug 13th, 2009 at 3:46pm
Hi Betty,

Ask to see a copy of the escritura (deeds) If there is no mention of any building on the land at all, walk in the opposite direction.

If there is a registered building and it says almacen, but it's a normal house with bathroom/kitchen etc, this is also illegal. A Spanish family had their 3 bedroom house demolished last month on the Delta, because permission was only ever granted to build an almacen, and you are not allowed to live in them.

If it says 'vivienda' on the escritura and the registered size of the building, then that is a legal house to live in, but also check that it's not any bigger than stated, or you could be in hot water again.

It's a mine field out there, and I can assure you that there are not very many legal viviendas in this area, so be very careful, and like you say on your posting, get legal representation before doing anything.

Regards
Jools

 

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by Ebrovoice on Aug 14th, 2009 at 1:20am

wrote on Aug 13th, 2009 at 11:52am:
We are currently renting but looking to buy a rural house in the area.  We have looked at quite a few and did like one near the village of Ginestar.  Have since been told that there is problems in the village and some demolition orders put on buildings.  Not sure if this is true or just scare mongering.  Does anyone have any information.  Obviously we are not going to commit ourselves until we have take legal advice but just thought we may get additional advice from people in the area.  We have approached some people but they did not seem to know anything about trouble we were only told by someone in the cafe in Tortosa.



Yes there has been trouble in that area and we do know of one family fighting a demolition order.There was some controversy with a previous Mayor.so you may be better checking with Tarragona...

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by PlanesPete on Aug 14th, 2009 at 10:47am
I'm using the Catastral add-on for Google Earth. This lets you see the registration details for each parcela. It's from the 'Ministerio de Economia y Haciendia' and, I presume shows the up to date official detail of the property. I think I got it from the Gencat web site but it was a good while ago.

Mine shows 'Clase: Urbano' and 'Uso: Residential' while our neighbours are 'Clase: Rustico' and 'Uso: Agrario' which doesn't seem so good for living in.

Anyone know more abour these classifications and what they mean regards living in the campo?

If it is reliable then it's obviously a great tool for anyone looking for property.

Pete.

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by Bigyin on Aug 14th, 2009 at 1:16pm
It would be really useful if you could find the pointer to that overlay for G/E.  I've had a quick punt round and couldn't find anything.  I had a bit of a prob with my place not being properly registered (after 3 years) due to rooster ups at the hacienda.  Cost me 300 euros worth of solicitor to get it sorted.  Would be good to be able to confirm the registered status of my bits.

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by PlanesPete on Aug 14th, 2009 at 1:36pm
Here we go...


http://www.catastro.meh.es/esp/servicios_destacados1.asp#menu5_7

Go down near the bottom of the page, in section 4.7. Just above the Google Earth image is a link to the install.

I haven't run it again now as I'm already installed. When you install it you may need to activate it by checking the box in the 'places' list at the left. you can turn it off there when it gets in the way.

To use it, just hover over the area of interest and a big refresh icon shows (eventually). Click on coloured squares and select the Cadastral number that comes up. A new window gives you the Cadastral data. The Google map also shows the outline of the parcels and location of buildings.

Happy hunting.  :)

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by Bigyin on Aug 14th, 2009 at 1:46pm
Thanks Pete.  I'll give it a go later (gotta nip out for a bit.)

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by El Alto on Aug 14th, 2009 at 9:40pm
Hi Pete and Bigyin,

Keep in mind that the plug-in gives you the info that is registred at the catastro and is just used for tax purposes. The info registred at the registro de propiedad (where the ownership is registred) is often not the same. If there is no complete registration at the registro de propiedad, the building is not legalized (yet) and you will have a hard time to get something as a building-permit to renovate.

The good news is that with the Google-earth tool you can get the poligon and parcella numbers of a property you have spotted at a search. And you will need this numbers to apply for the registered info at the registro de propiedad.

Mark

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by Bigyin on Aug 14th, 2009 at 11:57pm
Hmmm....slightly confused here.  Are you saying that the parecella info shown on the G/E overlay (which is the same as on my escetura) is only for tax (BASE) purposes and it's possible that the property still isn't registered at the registro de propiedad ?  If that were the case, what would be the possible adverse consequences. ?

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by Bigyin on Aug 15th, 2009 at 12:08am
Further to my previous...wouldn't it be great if someone on here knew the complete chapter and verse of EVERYTHING you're supposed to have to be legal and bulletproof here.  I recently applied successfully for my Certificado the Residencia and I promised Nigel I'd write the procedure up for inclusion in the useful info section at the top.  Haven't had time yet but will do eventually.  That can be added to the "How to get an NIE number" but there's still a lot of stuff that I either don't know about or am confused about.  Example:-  One of the docs I needed was a Convivencia.  I took along the paper I got from my local town hall when I first arrived only to be told that was a temporary one.  I got a proper one from the town hall and the lass at the oficina de extranjeros kept it.  Apparently they only last three months anyway and when I apply for my medical card, I'll have to go and get another one.  Also, I don't know if this is the same as a padron.  Any info from any experts would be welcome.
Cheers,
Bigyin (Confused of Catalonia)  :-?

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by nen on Aug 15th, 2009 at 8:02am

Bigyin wrote on Aug 15th, 2009 at 12:08am:
Further to my previous...wouldn't it be great if someone on here knew the complete chapter and verse of EVERYTHING you're supposed to have to be legal and bulletproof here.  I recently applied successfully for my Certificado the Residencia and I promised Nigel I'd write the procedure up for inclusion in the useful info section at the top.  Haven't had time yet but will do eventually.  That can be added to the "How to get an NIE number" but there's still a lot of stuff that I either don't know about or am confused about.  Example:-  One of the docs I needed was a Convivencia.  I took along the paper I got from my local town hall when I first arrived only to be told that was a temporary one.  I got a proper one from the town hall and the lass at the oficina de extranjeros kept it.  Apparently they only last three months anyway and when I apply for my medical card, I'll have to go and get another one.  Also, I don't know if this is the same as a padron.  Any info from any experts would be welcome.
Cheers,
Bigyin (Confused of Catalonia)  :-?

hi bigyin  :)if you buy a new car/medical card/residencia  etc as we have you need the paper from from your town hall we were charged 3e each for the papers and you need one for each item you apply for.CONFUSED OF CATALONIA/SPAIN aren't we all  :(even the locals and legal experts can't work it out sometimes i.e we have tryed to get a tenant's name took of the address of the house we rented him,but we are told it cant be done unless the person himself gos into tortosa with a new address and with the person who owns that address then his name will come of what a laugh as he as gone back to the uk and cant do that but his name they still wont remove and a legal expert couldn't find a way to remove it either
 









Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by El Alto on Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:51am
Hi Bigyin,

You Wrote: "Hmmm....slightly confused here.  Are you saying that the parecella info shown on the G/E overlay (which is the same as on my escetura) is only for tax (BASE) purposes and it's possible that the property still isn't registered at the registro de propiedad ?  If that were the case, what would be the possible adverse consequences. ?

And that is exactly the case. the Catastro and the Registro de propiedad are two different registrations with its one purpose. Spain did start rather late with  a good registration of property-ownership. So a lot of fincas are not registred at all in the Registro. I think the story of my finca gives an idea of the possible consequences. When I bought it the Catastro had registred two pieces of land and one building. In the Registro there was only one piece of land and no building. To fix this an architect must make a declaretion of the building to exist and has been there for a certain amount of time. For the missing piece of land there must made a public declaration at the town hall to see if someone (other then the seller) would claim rights to the land. You can imagine it did take a while and some money before we could apply for a building permit ;)

Mark

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by El Alto on Aug 16th, 2009 at 6:59pm
Just for  your information:

Nowedays usually the notario will make the registration by the Registro and you will get a nota simple from the Registro with some stamps on it to confirm it is registered. The Registro has local offices at every comarque. There is a website where you can order a nota simple for a finca or lookup where the nearest Registro-office is:

http://www.registradores.org/

If you click on "localizador" and fil in your town you get the nearest office.

Mark

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by gyronut44 on Nov 26th, 2011 at 6:01pm
Its a shame that a few have to pay for so many ! (think about it !) ginestar area

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by El Alto on Nov 27th, 2011 at 1:04am
Hi Gyro,

What are you referring to?

Mark

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by gyronut44 on Nov 27th, 2011 at 6:20pm
hi all, im referring to the fact that only certain properties (almacens,houses call them what you will)were targeted in the ginestar area,
the cowardly authorities obviously didnt want to pick on everybody for fear of a riot ,just a few poor souls in the area,only some have suffered,
anyway this is old news ,everybody knows the story,its a pity that some are still going through the mill ,
when will the authorities come to their senses and legalise ALL the rural properties,as i have said before many times it was their appointed official that handed out the permissions in the first place.
maybe if the eu money they received had been spent on what it was supposed to things might be different,
ah but they are all suffering now,the northern european cash cow is now gone!

Title: Re: Illegal almacen/casita/casa Ginestar
Post by gyronut44 on Dec 7th, 2011 at 9:19pm
well ,this subject didnt half grind to halt eh!
no reply to this one ! or is everything fine in ginestar now?

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