hi all
first post here. been living quietly in the Coll d'Alba region of Tortosa for the last couple of years, slowly returning the now overgrown olive terraces to their former glory and clearing the land.
Have a casa de campo and just in the last month or so have constucted a covered terrace 3mx7m in size.
Have had a visit from the agents rurals to ask if we have permission (we do not)and they tell us we must go to the ajuntament in Tortosa to apply for permissions.
Just wondering if anyone has experience of this - is it best to just go in and say that we have already constructed it and now are asking for permission? the agents rural want us to ring them once we have been to the ajuntament and tell them what they said.
I know we should have got permission in the first place but it's not like we are taking the wee wee - although I know we are in the wrong but want to make this right asap,
any suggestions kindly received,
thanks, Jellybaby

Hi there, I'm also a newbie.  I don't have any personal experience with the agents rural but I've heard from a friend that they can give you plenty of grief.  Having said that, I've not heard of them pulling down any dwellings in the area.  I'd be interested to hear if they have any real clout or are they like barking dogs.  I don't think you have any real choice but to approach the town hall in Tortosa but they do tend to quote the rule book when you ask for permission to reform rather than come out and look at the proposal and try and find a mutually acceptable solution.

Good luck with them anyway and let us know how you get on.
Furbydoggie

UH, OH! Here we go again, sorry to hear this. Yes, unfortunately they do have clout and plenty of it and if the authorities have there way they will try and screw as much money out of you as possible.

Officially, don't shoot the messenger, you need permission for any alteration to a casita. This means you are supposed to go to the adjuntament with your proposal. They will then check that the casita is listed on the deeds for the land ( some are not, even if they are old! ) you will be told to apply for architects plans!! As ridiculous as this sounds for a small casita. This will cost you an arm and a leg and you could be told no go anyway.

If they do approve your plans you will have to use a registered builder, can't DIY unless you are registered yourself. After the work is complete you will have to pay a tax to the adjuntament, which will be a percantage of the cost of the work.

Don't sit on this one, go to the adjuntamnet and try to find out where you stand.

Good luck

Gosh, rural living is a lot more sinister than I would have believed.  I genuinely thought they'd make lots of noise - coming, threatening and going away then repeating this sequence from time to time over a period of years.  Not so I guess.  What happens if you don't play ball with them?  Excuse the ignorance.  I know that in the town the town hall have really tightened up on what reforms you can do, especially in the old quarter but spanish neighbours (including residents association) suggest that you should go ahead and do what you want (within reason)and deal with the bureaucracy after the fact.

To be honest I think alot of people have an investment in keeping quiet about this whole subject, including Spanish/Catalan people and British, are you talking about village or campo here? You can probably get away with more in the village because they want the houses done up and won't exactly ask you to demolish it! The vast majority of locals live in towns or villages not campo houses and are probably talking about urban property.

This is not a lie, there are people right now in Tarragona province who have been arrested and taken to a criminal ( not civil) court due to alleged illegal building. There are also people who have come to the end of any appeal process and are awaiting the enforced demolition of their rural properties, with all their money and labour, dreams, life, etc. tied up in it.

This is why I'm not prepared to keep quiet on the matter which is what many people out there would prefer. I no longer live there and I feel safe enough to tell the truth.
I want as many people as possible to know about this so that they are not duped into buying a piece of land, casita, almacen that they are told they can build on. Or to build an almacen and it will be ok to live in it. Or to buy a property that they think is legal but isn't because someone wants to cash in and get rid of their nightmare. It's not fair to do this folks. So stop swallowing all the bull. s.h.i.t and arm yourself with the facts. It could save you a lot of money, time, energy and your health and sanity!!

Hi furbydoggy and viking
thanks for your replies - very useful both of them
Well, we decided to take the bull by the horns today and off we went to
the ajuntament in tortosa to find out what was what.
Firstly, they were very helpful - I personally was bricking it!
We were honest and said that we had already done the work but now understood that we should have got permissions first ... "lo siento" what now?
The nice man looked up our land and informed us that as we lived in what they called 'brown land' ie land that is not irrigated from the ground (a well) we would have to satisfy 2 requirements before they would submit a planning request.
1st - we had to have more than 4,000 square metres of land - we're ok on that one.
2nd - we have to prove that what we make more than 50% of our income (money coming from the uk as we are not yet residents) from the land. A bit more difficult to prove but do-able I think with a bit of help. He then said if we return with receipts of these and copies of our escritura, an architects plans of the whole building and external photos and they will submit a planning application and then we wait 1 year. They were also very helpful in suggesting reasons we might give to why we have had to do the building work and even suggested that the application would be to register the property as a dwelling =not something we could have dreamed was possible in the campo. Obviously, we are not holding much hope out on that one!
We then went to the agents rural's office in Tortosa to tell them what the ajuntament had said (as they had requested) (omitting the house as a legal dwelling idea) .... this is where things got more complicated.... they did not appear too happy that it appears the ajuntament are willing to take on the application and have asked us to return on monday with "someone who can speak better spanish to expain to them!"
I think this is where we are going to come up with the most opposition but will again keep you all posted on Monday.

Viking, thanks for submitting an honest summary of how things stand for rural dwellings - I know some expats who seem to have their heads firmly burried in the sand thinking that the agents rurals will go away, I'll recommend that they read your useful posts and hopefullt they'll take Jellybaby's approach and try and regularise their situation with the town hall.  I sincerely hope Jellybaby sets a precident and gets planning approval for the dwelling.  Best of luck on that one!

Personally I chose to buy a house in Tortosa some years ago having seen some lovely fincas but like you said, I didn't swallow the estate agents Bull s*%t, there were too many unknowns for me and being a foreigner I didn't want to go into battle with any un-neccessary spanish bureaucracy.  Even when you have a legal dwelling, they mannage to put various impediments in your way (especially when you're not there full time to deal with the paperwork) - I have to admit I spend about 2 weeks a year sorting out various bits and pieces to keep all things legal - and I can speak spanish!  I can't imagine what it's like sorting stuff if you don't.

i also had a visit from the agent rurals back in 2007 and they put a stop on my property saying it was illegal this was 6 months after the property was finished ,
why did they not stop it when the build was started and save me all the money that was spent on the build,of course if the so called estate agent hadnt sold me a piece of land that couldnt be built on in the first place it would have been much simpler ,they are still adamant that there is no problem even although i have a court case coming up which will probably drag on for years and waste more time and money i now dont have. >:(
it puzzles me that people can start up as estate agents ,rip people of,say yes you can do this and that without any problem,this includes a mayor who came to the land and confirmed all this also ,yes no problem you can build here or here on the land,a government appointed official who has now gone (with bulging pockets im sure)and everybody is left to pick up the pieces,
now the government are wasting a fortune with court officials being paid to prosecute all the innocent individuals who fell for all the claptrap delt out over the years (should go and see the mayor and the estate agent they must have plenty)and all the money the solicitors are earning on the back of this also,
i dont how this part of catalunya has been left to get on with it for so long and why the authorities are now bothered about it ,i mean what have the agent rurals been doing all these years ,building in the country cant be a new thing so why hasnt all this nonsense been brought up before,  >:(

Hi Jellybaby and Furrydoggie,

Well doe Jellybaby for 'taking the bull by the horns' I wish you all the best. Sorry to hear about your experience Furrydoggie, this is all familiar to me.
We were very lucky because I bought my land about 3 years before we moved out, I was fed the usual rubbish like we all were but thankfully by the time I arrived out there with my family it was already apparent that my dream of living on the finca would remain just that, a dream, and we could sense that something fishy was going on! We bought a village house and began to renovate it with all the permissions. We used reputable Catalan builders who had done a lot of work in the village and our street. We inspected their work at other houses and asked about so we knew they were reputable. This is really important as there are some cowboys out there ( British of course ) Of course the work cost more than a British cowboy would have quoted but for that you get a good job, not something that will fall apart in a few years, a roof that leaks and poor insulation. I'm not saying all the Brits out there are cowboys by the way, but some are so you will need to check their reputation, talk to previous clients and generally root around before you hand out your hard earned cash and get ripped off. Why do we let them get away with it?

There is huge corruption around the building industry in Spain, it has gone on for years and I have heard of similar stuff in the South of Spain so it is not just Catalunya. Now the authorities want to do something about it but it seems it is the victims who are paying the price not the perpetrators who have cashed in. We are not allowed to name and shame either and many are tight lipped so don't assume an Estate agent or builder etc.is ok because you haven't heard anything bad said about them. The ex pats are living in a very small community and if you piss someone off it can have negative consequences for you and your family.

If we had built on our finca we would have lost everything, all our savings from working bloody hard at difficult jobs. Thankfully we still have our house in the village which is worth something and can be sold once the situation improves in Spain.

As far as I'm concerned the Estate agents who have cashed in on peoples dreams and innocence are scum, predators, crooks, leeches and parasites who should be driven out of their webs and sent on their way.

I wish everyone luck, keep your eyes and ears open and arm yourselves with the facts, stay safe and don't hand your money to these crooks.

Would it be possible to post your experience on this site?

http://www.name-n-shame.co.uk/

>:( fan bloody tastic i have just heard that my place in the mora valley has been broken into recently,where are the rurals when all the crime is going on,
(i bet if you tried to do any work on your building in the dark in the middle of the night and on a festival holiday they would be there in a flash),only consolation being after all the  effort to get in there is nothing in there to steal anyway,thanks to a dodgy agent selling me a property i cant make any use of , im really beginning to love catalunya what a fantastic place!

Sorry to hear this Gyro! Crime is a real problem in the Campo and one of the reasons the locals mainly live in towns or villages. These are fairly well policed but the Campo much less so. This means it is a haven for criminals, either individuals or gangs who would not dare rob a village house but know that they are much less likely to get caught burgling houses in the Campo.

There seems to also be a mentality among some, including some Brits that it is somehow less serious to nick stuff from the Campo and that it is fair game. These unsavoury characters often know the comings and goings of their neighbours or their friends. They could be chatting to you in the bar one day and you mention that you are off somewhere for the weekend or maybe going back to the UK. tHEY MAY EVEN OFFER TO 'KEEP AND EYE ON THE PLACE' Beware because keeping an eye to a criminal translates as doing over your property. I'm not saying you can't trust anyone but you you must be very, very, careful who you give information to and who you invite out to your casa in the country.

I know this sounds awful but it is the reality for many in this area. Don't get to pally with people too soon, wait until you know them better before you invite them to your house.

If you have an empty property in the Campo then take great care. Generators, solar panels and batteries, tools, tractors, caravans , they are all worth money to these criminals you will take them and sell them on. Who to? Think about this next time you buy something second hand, make sure it is legitimate, after all they could be taking your stuff next week and handling stolen goods is considered as serious as theft!

If you live in the area you get to know who the dodgy characters are, unfortunately no one will pass the information on because they don't want to get on the wrong side of these characters!! Characters who are getting increasingly desperate as the work dries up and people get wise to what can and cannot be built in the CAMPO.

Sorry to sound so negative but my rose tinted glasses fell off after about 2 months of living in Catalunya!!!

Well I have a bit of a different spin to this topic, I have had my roofless casita for over 6 years now, I bury most of my valuable tools ,but one year I tarped over the roof, and left my strimmer inside only to come back several months later to find the  tarpe had been ripped of by the winds, and no strimmer !
The farmer below me with the help of "sign language"  let me know that the owner of the finca above me had taken the strimmer inside his locked up shed, safe from the "Bandits" well it took me 3 years but I managed to get it back from him last year,I can only thank the locals around the campo,who always give a wave, and even though I cannot speak Spanish they will try to communicate. :D

philmountains wrote on Mar 31^st, 2010 at 10:32am:

Well I have a bit of a different spin to this topic, I have had my roofless casita for over 6 years now, I bury most of my valuable tools ,but one year I tarped over the roof, and left my strimmer inside only to come back several months later to find the  tarpe had been ripped of by the winds, and no strimmer ! The farmer below me with the help of "sign language"  let me know that the owner of the finca above me had taken the strimmer inside his locked up shed, safe from the "Bandits" well it took me 3 years but I managed to get it back from him last year,I can only thank the locals around the campo,who always give a wave, and even though I cannot speak Spanish they will try to communicate. :D

same here phil :)our locals are very friendly too lovely people allways wont to speak to you and wave when they pass you by  8-)

Dear Moderators,

Did somebody remove my posting about the crime and burglaries around the area, and naming the person responsible who the Police are now searching for?

Also explaining to the people with property here how to get back all of their possessions, which apparently comes into many 1000's of Euros, as the police removed 2 van loads from the burglars house.

Surely nobody would remove a helpful posting like that, which obviously affects many members on here!!!!!


Jools

Not guilty of removing any posts....

Not me.
Tony

A few posts have been removed lately, and not just on this subject.
So who is responsible???

must be a hacker!? I'd like to know...what other posts have been removed, presumably not the ones about boot sales, flea markets or restaurants!!!

Has anyone ever challenged the Catalunyan govt. and/ or the Spanish govt. in the European court of human rights .W e are members of the EEC and as such have rights to live anywhere in the community. Just because the governments do not want to supply services to rural properties does not mean they can call every campo property illegal as a home.If no services are required or asked for, if no "villa" is built and the properties are bought legally, using Spanish solicitors and in the presence of a Spanish notary , how can a citizen of Europe be told where he can live, providing he is not causing trouble for others in the area.Are the rights of home owners, who have bought their homes and not taken any liberties with the size of the house null and void just because a group of polititians, who change anyway on a regular basis, decide that rural living is   "not allowed".Your comments would be interesting.

A very valid point.Everyone seems to be running scared.If someone was to stand toe to toe with these politicians what would the outcome be ???
My understanding of the principles behind all this cedula business is that the Spanish government was bailed out to a tune of 800 billion euros.They had promised or been told to provide basic services to all dwellings.So,they built some very nice roads.Too get around the broken promises they then had to find a way of lessening the amount of dwellers in the Campo,hence this license of habitation.The knock on effect for unemployment alone of this doesn´t bear thinking about,from the banking sector down to the corner shop......
This is only my understanding of it,if I am wrong,please correct.

Our friends did fight the matter in court but got no where and it cost them very dearly. This was a criminal court because they were formally arrested for the illegal build, despite having sought permission from the local adjuntament and having all the paperwork. They had to hire a barrister and although the judge threw it out of court this was not the end of it. She threw it out as a criminal matter but they still had to face the civil courts and the costs just rise and rise. I hear what you are saying about going to the European courts and it is not the first time this has been raised. The problem is you still have to find someone willing to take the case on on your behalf and it could still cost you a fortune. Unless you have very good back up both legally and financially this could be difficult.

My view is that one of these cases does need to go to the European Court as a test case and it might be better if someone who has returned to the UK leaving their property in limbo took advice from their MP here in the UK. If you tried to do it over there you could simply end up with more corrupt individuals trying to rip you off. I would strongly recommend that anyone in this situation who has returned to the UK, and I know there are many from Catalunya alone, speak to their MP about it asap. They hold surgeries and I'm sure they would be able to offer some advice. It may be that their are legal companies who would even be prepared to take this on as a test case. If they won then it would open the floodgates to compensation. It could well be argued that the adjuntament and local officials have turned a blind eye to what is going on. They knew what was happening and failed to warn buyers.

Lets face it, how difficult would it have been to pass a law to force the notaries to be duty bound to provide clear information in English or other EU languages PRIOR TO THE SALE OF LAND to inform buyers of the restrictions of building a dwelling of any type????? That is all it would have taken to stop this mess and prevent the ' Estate Agents' from passing off agricultural land as being suitable for living on.!!!

hi everybody,been reading all your posts and they all actually make sense ,seems that everytime i land over in catalunya i become very confused BECAUSE NOTHING MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL! is the concept of a straight answer alien to that part of the world,all that fantastic weather ,food ,scenery,etc and they waste their time on petty nonsense , its an unusual place right enough. :-/
i have travelled all over europe and the states and even eastern europe andi havent experienced anything like it anywhere else, i have been to the ebro area many times but find it very hard to find somebody to trust or to volunteer help without money changing hands ,is this normal in that area,there are one or two people here and there that have been the exception,
on the subject of mp s try chris bryant , bryantc@parliament.uk he was on uk telivision recently highlighting the problems in spain, worth a try. ::)

Well you said it Gyro! Thanks for the MP lead, that could be helpful! There are many great people out there, of all nationalities, so I wouldn't want people to think that everyone is awful. We had fantastic neighbours in our village when we lived out there and one of them nextdoor still looks after my place when I'm not there. It's just a shame the bad apples got into the barrel!!!Hopefully now that the bubble has burst things will slowly improve and people will realise there is a huge price to pay for trying to make a quick buck at others expense.

+1 Viking, I have to agree that there are many great people out there.  In Tortosa, we have fantastic neighbours Catalan and ex-pat.  We're only there for holidays and the neighbours keep an eye on everything in between.  On a practical level I imagine it would be fairly impossible for the cops to adequately police the campo, due to the geographic diversity and location of the fincas, and it must be said - the inaccessibility of some of the more remote dwellings.  

What's the story with housse insurance in Catalunya? Do most of you have it and would it cover burglaries?  Having spoken to folk in Tortosa, it amazed me how many people DONT have house insurance.  I do but I'm not sure how good the cover is yet - thank god, haven't had any reason to make a claim yet......

Perhaps it would be more beneficial to contact MEPs rather than MPs regarding the Spanish Government's disregard for European Legalities???  Just a thought.

Reading some of the negative post about some people's experiences is sad but don't stop posting them because knowledge and information is critical for the rest of us to learn how to avoid the same pitfalls.  

I have been watching this post with interest, I am one of the people in Ginestar who is in deep deep dodo with the authorities even though I have only done what the rest of the people have done.  If you are thinking of purchasing a rural property in Ginestar then DONT as they are all illegal.  I know of 4 demolition orders in Ginestar and I believe there may be more to follow.  The trouble is some of the people that have trouble may not be aware of it, the Ajuntament have cancelled many licences issued by the old Mayor.  I have tried to PM the two people that seem to indicate they are in the Ginestar area but as I do not have 20 posts I am not allowed to do this but if they would like to contact my via PM then perhaps we could swap notes and maybe we can be of some help to each other, maybe we already know of each other, naturally I do not want to go into too much detail on the Forum.  I have contacted MEP Chris Bryant and also my local MEP but as yet have not received even an acknowledgement.  Have also tried the legal system in Spain but no luck there either. :'(

hi eden, iam in the same position as you,i did contact chris bryant and did receive a reply,
he is now aware of the carry on in catalunya,he is a minister of state for europe and consular affairs,
the nonsense going on in ginestar has been caused by a very small minority of people! but i am amazed at the previous  mayor who so far seems to be getting away with a multitude of sins,amazing really, ;)
as for the demolition orders,have any actually been carried out yet,
i heard from somebody whose estate agent was quoted as saying,any changes to the law were made after they built on the land and that there would be an amnesty on all builds that that now exist but no new ones would be allowed, and then they woke up !must have been a dream,  ::)

Someone needs to get these Estate Agents saying this on record! Perhaps a hidden tape recorder and then present it to the local authorities. They were saying this years ago and it was rubbish then, I cannot believe that they are still spouting these untruths and that, unfortunately, people are still being conned. The Catalan/Spanish authorities need to take some stand on this and catch them in the act. How hard would that be! All they would need to do is set up a 'honey trap' and film/record what the Estate agents are saying. Then they will have the evidence to prosecute. Or does the law allow these Estate Agents to tell lies because they are still not covered by the same type of legislation as they are in other EU countries such as the EU? The government need to get a grip on what is happening rather than simply blame the innocents for being duped. Estate Agents need to sign up to a code of conduct and be strictly monitored on this and the Adjuntament needs to be similarly accountable with a zero tolerance on corruption.

Don't give up folks, keep writing to your MEP, MP and also write to the press. Perhaps we could organise a petition over the forum? Don't know if this would be allowed? Asking for this matter to be addressed in the European Court and an amnesty where people can demonstrate that they have been the victims of corruption or misinformation?

Just a thought but please keep flagging up this issue because my gut feeling is we are not doing this enough which is allowing the problem to continue.

I wonder if people know if the Ajuntament have given you a licence for an Almacen and then turned a blind eye while you built your casa de campo (with the agreement of the village government official and architect) and you then get a demolition order you can go to the Ajuntament for compensation.  Although it is your right to receive compensation you may have to go to the expense of going through the Supreme Court to receive this - more expense.
Now just imagen if Urbanismo had selected all of the illegal properties in one go then everyone would have clubbed together to fight this (instead of still believing what the Agents are telling them) and the village would end up bankrupt - perhaps that is why they are picking us off in small groups.  
Also if you have registred at BASA (as requested by the Mayor) then you will find your land has now been reclassified by Ministerio de Economia y Hacienda as Residencial - this does not change the status of your illegal building it just means that in 2010 BASA can charge you more tax.  
Just like the Ajuntament can charge you tax although legally you are not suppose to be there.
Just to confirm the position if anyone is thinking of buying a property in the campo - THIS IS LAND THAT CANNOT BE BUILT ON - If however you are fortunate to get permission to build it will be for an ALMACEN which translated to English is a barn/tool shed. :'(

come on Jools, let us know who the 'alleged' person was, we have all had stuff nicked in this area, I for one a generator ( ok. it was old and broken ) a caravan ( pretty knackered too, but that is not the point ) and probably the worst the contents of my wood pile, needed that to keep warm!!! Someone has been very busy if the Mossos got two vanloads. Promise I'm no vigilante, I just want to know who to avoid like the plague.

HI, Contact the mosses in Gandesa, they have a list of the stolen goods and know the persons concerned, if they want you to know theyll tell you.
                               Terry.