Hi everyone can any one advise us please on a recent visit to our casa i found 2 dead birds in our cisterna and it was a little smelly probably due to the birds floating in the water is the water safe to use for showers still and also are there any chemicals we could or should add to it to make it safe we do not use it for drinking only showers and washing up etc also what are the risks of catching legionaires from a cisterna the pevious spanish occupants used to drink the water although we would not thanks

Hi JT,

I wont use this water for showers. There are a lots of diseases you can get from infected water besides legionaires. The best way is to clean out the cisterna so the next rainwater you catch won't be infected. Personally I always disinfect rainwater at my finca with a combination of clorine and UVC-light. I'm away for months sometimes and there will always be a bio-film on the rainwater after that amout of time.

Hope this helps,
Mark

Hi Mark
thanks sounds like good advise we will empty it and get a water delivery next time we are out any ideas where we can buy the correct chemicals in the tortosa and what qty we should add to the cisterna it is appx 3000lts
Thank you
jon

Hi JT,

A simple and cheap method (if you don't use the water for drinking) is buy yourself a swimming-pool set. They sell kits for small pools/spa's with chlorine tablets, test-strips and PH-minus at the lager supermarkets. When I arrive at the finca I bring the water to a PH and chlorine level recommanded for a spa. After that I pump it through a UVC-filter system (I bought it in Holland but I think they sell them at Bauhaus too). The UVC is optional but will allow you to lower the chlorine level (UVC kills things like legionella). Also if you don't use a pump/filter you have to do something else to mix the water/chlorine (stirr it?).

Good luck,
Mark

Hello, the cheapest way is to put some bleach in the cisterna. Check the label as many say suitable for  drinking water. I use one called Lejia Lecasa. It is in a yellow bottle and I buy it from the local agro co-op. You can probably buy it or something similar in most supermarkets - just read the label first

Hi David,

I don't know if bleach is the cheapest way. The chlorine percentage in bleach is about 10-15%. In swimmingpool tablets it's 60-90% (depending on the brand/type). Whatever you use 2,5 mg/liter is the recommanded active chlorine level for swimming pools and should be sufficient for desinfection. For both methods you also should check the PH-level. If the PH-level is to high or low the chlorine won't be effective.

Mark

You must be very careful with water quality not only for drinking but also for showering and cooking. One of the few problems is legionella but there are also ear and eye infections and skin irritations. Why risk your families health!
Legionella live within amoebae in the natural environment. Legionella species are the causative agent of the human Legionnaires' disease and the lesser form, Pontiac fever. Legionella transmission is via aerosols — the inhalation of mist droplets containing the bacteria(via showering). Common sources include cooling towers, swimming pools (especially in scandinavian countries and other countries such as Northern Ireland), domestic hot-water systems, fountains, and similar disseminators that tap into a public water supply. Natural sources of Legionella include freshwater ponds and creeks. Chlorine is only a short term help and must be monitored closely.

It is far better to get a water purification system like we have  which is chemical free and doesn´t use electric plus no maintenance. Just install it and forget about it! It even makes river water safe not only to shower but to drink!

See www.purewaterspain.com for more details where you can have a system for your entire water supply or a smaller one for under the sink.

Hi Pip,

This pure water system has interesting specifications. It seems to be just a three trap filter but claims to remove much more then other filtering systems can. But I can't find any independent test of this system. Did you have seen any independent test results? (maybe have a link for me?)

Regards,
Mark

when we came out here 9 yrs ago we brought with us a filter system which has been in place ever since, with new filters fitted every 6 months. We've never had any problems with drinking cisterna water.  These filter systems are now available here in Spain but check out this coy's website for what the filter does and does not do for your own satisfaction.

http://www.pozzani.co.uk/

Hi Mark

There are many reviews especially in boating magazines and there is also this link and video:
This is a 10 min video of the river water demo in KL and Penang, Malaysia of the Seagull IV water purifier from General Ecology USA.
http://naturepure.blogspot.com

Seagull 4 is a EPA certified micro-biological purifier, clinically proven to remove 99.99999% of viruses, bacteria, chemicals and heavy metals, up till the last drop.

Do not be confused by water filters or fancy so called high technology units that are not clinically proven.

Clinical tests done at the University of Arizona, USA and Institute Pasteur, France.

Also I had my water tested before and after the installation and the chemist couldn´t believe it was the same water!

It is easy to install no maintenance or electric, no waste water like reverse osmosis which actually wastes water and does not remove bacteria but removes the minerals from the water and destroys the goodness making it dead water!

Pip

I sympathise with the cistern problem as I also have had to use cisternas on my finca in the past. However I would like some things made clear from a previous post. Are you,Pip, solely a concerned finca owner or do you have an interest in Purewaterspain(PWS).
You state that osmosis units produce "dead water" but surely this is innacurate if,as you say, the units don't remove bacteria. And how is pure filtered water"dead"?

I seem to remember Reading an advert for the proposed filtration system(please correct me if I am wrong as it was a few years ago) that suggested osmosis units didn't do the job as they needed a carbon filter which struck me as odd because I knew for a fact osmosis units do come with a carbon filter.
For the record I am solely a concerned/interested finca owner. I have nothing against PWS and use an osmosis unit myself and have friends who have used them for several years with no problems so I am interested in the answer.

On a separate note, with Hazelnut seeming quiescent for awhile I sincerely hope I am not becoming the forum grump and hope that this post doesn't sound to pompous.
Bruixot 

wrote on Aug 20^th, 2010 at 4:42pm:

On a separate note, with Hazelnut seeming quiescent for awhile I sincerely hope I am not becoming the forum grump and hope that this post doesn't sound to pompous. Bruixot

"quiescent" ?  That's a posh word.  I presume it means "got the hump".  Would be good to see the old git back wouldn't it ?  I can't see how anything you've said could be construed as "Hazlenutty"  ;D

I've installed a few of the Seagull units and also the reverse osmosis systems.  I can't comment on the water quality from either but I assume it is good (I've drunk it!)

The significant difference is that the reverse osmosis units (such as the ones sold in Bauhaus and some ferreterias) work very slowly and have a small (5 or so) litre reservor and are only really meant for drinking water. They have their own tap and are usually fitted under (or near) the kitchen sink. 

The Seagull units are designed to supply water to the whole house and are connected in the main water pipe from the cisterna.  You will barely (if at all) notice any difference in the flow of water from the taps so water in any part of the house is safe for drinking/showering.

The Seagull units are installed with 3 normal filters of reducing particle size before the main filter.  These filters are only to remove particles from the water and although aren't essential help to prolong the life of the main filter in the Seagull unit.

Nigel

Hi Pip,

Thanks for the link but i'm affraid this is all commercial info from seagull, not independent information. I can't find any good watersport-magazine review online.

I'm sure any filter system can clean up reletively clean rainwater. But the problem with my situation is I am not at the finca for months sometimes. This makes the bio-infection level in the water high (yes, unfortunatly the birds also shit on the same roof I use to collect water  ;) )

Also most water-filters will transform in an infection-well itself if you leave it unused for months so I will have to change the filter cardridge(s) every time I arrive (so a system with an expensive cardridge isn't very economical for a 3-week holiday). For the moment I use the good-old chlorine method but good information about filtering systems is very welcome to lower my use of chlorine.

Regards,
Mark

Hi Mark

Here are just a few reviews other than the blog link I sent before.  Also the system as I understand it works on the quantity of water passing through so it would be installed after the water leaves the cisterna and as it enters the house. This means if you are not there it is not used but will start working again when you return and you use the water so there is not a problem if you only spend part of the year here.

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-82329-10.html
http://www.productreview.com.au/showitem.php?item_id=57273
http://bestbuyledhdtv.techcalendars.net/seagull-iv-x-1f-ca-drinking-water-filter/#more-191
http://www.waterfiltercomparisons.com.au/

Here is the information about reverse osmosis and what I called dead water where the water is tripped of all natural minerals therefore removing all the goodness our body needs:

Reverse Osmosis Water Filtration Systems
This is a process that exposes water under pressure to a semi permeable membrane with a very fine pore structure. Because most inorganic contaminants have a larger molecular size than water, the membrane rejects certain contaminants, minerals and a large part of the water. The portion of water that passes through the membrane is stripped of inorganic compounds and trace minerals. Because many synthetic chemicals, such as herbicides and pesticides are smaller, molecularly, than water, a reverse osmosis system must also be used in conjunction with a carbon filter. Reverse osmosis systems require adequate water pressure and extensive maintenance. Because most point-of-use reverse osmosis systems produce less than 1 gallon per hour, they require a diaphragm storage tank. Reverse osmosis typically wastes 2 to 3 gallons of water for every gallon it produces and costs 18 to 24 cents per gallon. Often these products are marketed by using a demonstration that measures the TDS (total dissolved solids), and implies that this measurement shows the systems effectiveness at removing contaminants. TDS meters measure the dissolved minerals in water, primarily calcium and magnesium, and have little or nothing to do with contaminant levels or water purity. On a more scientific level, there are several credible research reports and books that stress the more recent opinion that long term consumption of de-mineralized water can in fact be dangerous. Two very negative things happen when we consume water that has been stripped of its natural minerals. First, because de-mineralized water contains more hydrogen it is an acid, with a pH below seven. Any time we consume an acid substance, our body will pull minerals from our teeth and bones to produce bicarbonate in order to neutralize the acid. Second, it has been proven that when our body fluids become more acid than alkaline the production of free radicals increases, causing increased cancer risks.

Pip

Well, that answers some ofmy questions. I will check the acidity of my water from my osmosis unit and get back on that one.
One of the reasons i chose the osmosis unit was for it's ability to remove minerals. The bottled water here is high in calcium and having suffered from kidney stones In the past I wanted to avoid suffering again.
As for wasted water all our grey waste including the osmosis waste goes into irrigating our citrus trees so no waste there.
I will point out that the question as to Pip having an interest in selling these units hasn't been answered. I appreciate that people advertisng on the forum are also members but declaring an interest would only be fair.

However I do concur that an osmosis unit would not be ideal for someone parttime here. I would also like to disagree with the suggested high maintenance needs of an osmosis unit. The filters don't  need changing that often and they can be bought a lot cheaper in the uk than here.
Bruixot.

Finally I found a good test report from a Dutch boat-magazine. They did three test rounds: one with clean water left for two weeks in tanks in the sun. To test water with lots of bacterias the second test-round they used water from the Amsterdam-canals (don't drink that unfiltered(!). The third test they did with clean water after two weeks not using the filters (to see if bacterias grow in the filters and contaminate the water). The test where done bij C-lab (an independent lab). They only tested on bacterias like legionella, e-coli and salmonella because there starting point was clean water (without pollutions like chemicals or metals).

The "seagull IV" (in Spain sold by purewater spain) was a poor performer, referenced as not to be trusted for cleaning up bacterias. They also tested another system from the same manufacterer: the "Nature Pure" wich was perfoming much better. It couldn't filter the water to the Dutch drinkingwater norm level but the result was pretty close. The best system was 2Bsure. This system uses electrolyse to convert the minerals in water to chloride(!). In the end they concluded the best thing you can do is use chlorine (ordinairy tablets, bleach or with an expensive electrolise-system) and combine this with a coal-filter to remove the chlorine again to get a better taste.

For the Dutch readers: http://www.brightspark.nl/uploads/brochures/zeilen_2bsure_nl.pdf

Hi El Alto
I have looked at this web site Brightspark who have done this report and they are the manufactureres of this 2 be sure. It is a fairly new product and doesn't appear to have any certifications and under the 2 references they supply, it is very strange that they are identical and from different people!
It is also strange that they supposedly tested Seagull IV and the Nature Pure against their own 2 be sure product when both the Nature Pure and the Seagull systems are identical just different sizes both purifiying water down to 0.1micron.  The Seagull and NaturePure have been tested by hundreds of independent  companies all over the world and have been operation for over 30 years
General Ecology® Water Purifiers Certified independently to EPA Guide Standards- Standard Protocol for microbiological purifiers against Bactria, Cysts and Viruses!

Seagull® IV & Nature Pure® UltrafineT Water Purifiers

First Need® Portable Water Purifiers

Three series of tests were conducted by the independent laboratory at the University of Arizona to document removal of microbiological contaminants according to current EPA Guide Standard and Protocol for Testing Microbiological Water Purifiers.

The purifiers were operated for 100% of their rated capacity and challenged periodically with high concentrations of bacteria, cysts and virus. At the 60% and 75% test points the units were challenged with "worst case" water according to protocol. Additionally, the systems were allowed to stagnate for 48 hours after the 50%, 75% and 100% test points to demonstrate that no microbiological growth through the cartridge occurred.

% Reduction (geometric average of 3 units)
       Bacteria      Cysts      Virus Polopviurs
type I
Test Point
% of Rated Capacity      Klebsiella terrigena      Cryptosporidium      Rotavirus SA-11
start                                  >99.9999                       >99.9                     >99.99
25%                                  >99.9999                      >99.9                    >99.99
50%                                  >99.9999                      >99.9                    >99.99
48 hr. stagnation                NG                               NG                       NG
*60%                            >99.9999                    >99.9                    >99.99
*75%                            >99.9999                   >99.9                 >99.99
48 hr. stagnation      NG      NG      NG
*90%                          >99.9999                   >99.9                     >99.99
*100%                          >99.9999                   >99.9                     >99.99
*= Worst case challenge water. NG = No Growth

They are also used on the Airbus A380 and Virgin Atlantic Airways plus fitted as standard in some boats.

This is standard information anyone can get on the internet, I have researched this as we needed a system for our house and it is  very important to get something right where it concerns your health! I found many water purification/filter systems only did part of the job where Seagull IV did the lot. I believed the idea of the forum is to provide useful information to all living here so I decided to do so espeically as we have used the system for many years now and can be confident the water is safe to drink.

Hi Pip,

The link I published is just a copy of the magazine artikel at the website of 2Bsure. The test and the artikel is done in  2004 in a well know Dutch sailing magazine as you can see at:

http://www.zeilen.nl/tijdschrift/juli-2004/1302

So I think it's a bit quick and dirty analized if you  suggest this is a fake artikel from the manufacturer of 2Bsure.

All the other info I can find on the Seagull IV (also in the links you provided)  is unverified manufacturers marketing (like they are referring to a test from the University of Arizona but the test itself is not published).

Regards,
Mark