Hi
I am looking to buy a small place in this area (near Ginestar) shortly, but I have never bought overseas before and I have a million and one questions and wondered if you guys and gals could help me. If I start with a few basic questions I am sure there will be many more to follow lol. We intend to use it as a holiday home for the time being and eventually retire to it. Anyway firstly the property I am looking at is about 4 years old and semi rural.
I suppose a lot of it is pointing me in the right direction. Firstly I have read (about 18 months ago) about demolition orders being used in the Ginestar area, are there any further developments on this front?
Secondly could anyone recommend a good English speaking solicitor?
Having trawled the net looking for used car dealers (4x4) without success, could you recommend a website please.
Finally for the moment, there was talk by a different estate agent, of black and white money when purchasing a property. Could someone explain if this is the ‘norm’ or should it be avoided?
Many thanks for now. 

Just to clarify.
"We intend to use it as a holiday home for the time being and eventually retire to it. Anyway firstly the property I am looking at is about 4 years old and semi rural."
Are you saying that you have actually identified a particular property ?  If so, was it offered by a local Estate Agent ?  The most important first step is to check the bona fides of the agent.  Once you are sure about that and also the classification and legality of the place you're looking at, I'm sure some of the members on here can help with advice on the next steps.
Happy for anyone else to jump in here.

Bigyin wrote on Jan 18^th, 2011 at 6:35pm:

Just to clarify. "We intend to use it as a holiday home for the time being and eventually retire to it. Anyway firstly the property I am looking at is about 4 years old and semi rural." Are you saying that you have actually identified a particular property ?  If so, was it offered by a local Estate Agent ?  The most important first step is to check the bona fides of the agent.  Once you are sure about that and also the classification and legality of the place you're looking at, I'm sure some of the members on here can help with advice on the next steps. Happy for anyone else to jump in here.

Hi Bigyin, yes we have indentified a specific property and it was shown to us by an estate agent. How would I go about checking the classification and legality of the place.

Thanks

I can recommend a really good English speaking solicitor, but he is based in Tarragona. Comes out to Tortosa area sometimes if needed.
He is called Ton Battle, Tel: 977218633.

The words 'lamb' and 'slaughter' spring to mind.Be very careful.
In my opinion ( for what it may be worth....)
Have you looked anywhere other than Ginestar...??
Avoid estate agents like the plague unless the are HIGHLY recommended (most of the dodgy ones have packed up by now and returned to Blighty or somewhere)
Choose your own solicitor,not one recommended by an agent,there are a couple of good ones in the area.
Think of buying a 4x4 in the UK and taking over.It will work out much cheaper.
Black and white money is the way it is.

Do not beleive any Estate agent,registered or not.
Some estate agents are still trying to tell buyers they do not nead a Cedula to live full time, in a rural property !
My opinion is DO NOT buy in cataloonya,as you will probably end up with a very expensive Allotment.

If you can get the Parcela and Poligono numbers you can do a bit of research yourself.
Go here:
https://www1.sedecatastro.gob.es/OVCFrames.aspx?TIPO=CONSULTA
and get the details, then GO TO THE ADJUNTAMENT and ask them the classification/legality of living there or if it's just a modernised tool shed. Take someone who speaks Spanish if your language skills aren't up to it.

Nigel

I will go with pretty much everything that has been said previously, especially about being careful buying in Catalunya (there are very very few legally built viviendas with a cedula)
Also agree about the Lawyer Ton Battle, he actually worked for some clients of ours and he was super efficient and very thorough and asked all the right questions and more besides(and I'm an agent.... ::)

I wish you the very best of luck, sincerely.
Jools

Its never Dumb to ask questions the more you ask the better informed you become!! and hopefully you won't end up buying a pig in a poke, unless you want one of course

Never trust an estate agent they are working for the seller!!
Get your own solicitor!!
Don't buy without a Cedula unless you want to camp in a barn!!
There are people selling who will do all white money!!
Don't believe anyone who says water and electricity close by and easily obtained!!
If you can't find evidence on the esquitura of the words vivienda don't buy!!
And look for the date of construction before 1984!!
Unless of course it has legal permissions to build very rare!!

Mind you as Jools says you will probably ignore everything you have been told and buy with your heart instead of your head

Ahh well ::) ::)

My two pennies worth is that while I am very very happy having lived here for six years if I could do the whole thing over again I would be in Aragon for the safety of permissions and no daft stuff like cedulas etc.
Bruixot

Thanks for all your answers folks, I will try and condense some of the questions you have asked me into an abbreviated version.

The agent is definitely not Dutch, but was very helpful and put no pressure on us whatsoever and answered all our questions clearly. I will gladly PM their name to anyone who is interested or thinks they could recommend them, but I don’t think it’s right to put their name on an open forum.

The property is about 4 years old and has never been lived in.

Thanks for the recommendation of a solicitor, looks like Ton Battle is the man.

We did look at another area Riba Roja D’Ebre but found nothing suitable.

‘Lambs to the slaughter’ hopefully not lol.

So black and white money is the way it is, that’s fine by me.

There is agricultural water to the property and solar panels for the electric.

‘Buy with heart and not head’  lol………. Never, that’s why I have all the questions.

Thanks again.

Apologies to the people who have sent me PM's, apparently I can't reply until I have reached 10 posts, sorry.  :-[

Be very carefull buying in Catalunya and be wary of the friendly Agents that will tell you what you want to hear not what you need to know. Check the Escatura (similar to UK Deeds) you may find that it only has the land on it and not a building. If it has a building I am 99% sure that it will just be an Almacen and not a Casa.  The Ajuntament should be able to tell you if it is a property with a problem.

You could also check the BOP Bulletins
go to https://www.diputaciodetarragona.cat/ebop/
On the left side BOP del dia click on e-sumari then click Historic 2009
On the next page where is says Emissor continue as follows
Desplegueu - Click AMINISTRACIO LOCAL
next Click  AJUNTAMENTS DE LA PROVINCIA DE TARRAGONA
next Click  AJUNTAMENT DE GINESTAR
At the bottom click Accptar

This will list all the insecrcions for the year 2009 from the Ginestar Ajuntament - CADUCITAT DE LA LLICENCIA translates as building licence has been revoked - just see how many this has happend to in Ginestar and you will also see a lot of the names are British.  You can follow the same proceedure for 2010.
This happend because the previous Mayor was giving out illegal licences allowing people to build houses with a Almacen (BARN) licence.
Make sure you can legally live in the property you are thinking about buying and if it does not have a Cedula you will not be able to sell it on as a legal dwelling.

If you know the Poligon and Parcela number you can also look at it on Goolzoom and the Catastro number will tell you if it is registered as having a building on the land (this is different to the Escatura - which you should also make sure it is registered on)  It may come up as RESIDENCIAL but if you click on the corresponding number it will just give the surface area of the building and will list it as INDUSTRIAL.

This does not mean it is a residencial building. 

Take no notice when you are told you do not need a solicitor it may be the best money you spend as they should be able to find out the exact legallity of the building and the land.
Hope this has not confused you too much.   :-?

What an excellent website, but what ever happened to data protection. I've just looked through years of applications (or people who said they had applied.... ::) in all kinds of villages.

You must really listen to this fact about Ginestar, it's absolutely true, but if you get a decent Lawyer they will point you in the correct direction.
Jools

Wow, that is certainly an eye opener Lazydaze, thank you.

I understand the property I am looking at, is as you say licensed as an Almacen but ‘under the old laws’. Is this the same case as those on the list?

Do you know what happens when the licenses are revoked, do they have to be demolished or what?

I am not trying to convince myself here(honestly), but why is it such a problem, surely it can only be good for the villages. Surely increasing the population of a village can only be a good thing. Or am I being very naïve and missing the point?

You're now dealing with blinkered,rural Spanish politics,a totally different can of worms.(Over to you,Stu)

Dear Sleeper,
I dont want to sound rude, but your last sentence about being naive etc, is absolutely right.

Please listen to the many people on here who have been there, done that, and worn many of the T.shirts.

The bottom line is Catalunya doesn't want you here, the Government are making all of these rules and regulations to make it virtually impossible to live and build legally on rustic land.

They dont care about 'growing' the villages, most of them have had enough of undesirable types in most areas, who obviously spoil it for everybody else.

Buy this almacen, as I'm sure that is what it is, at your own peril!!!!!  You certainly cant say that enough people on here haven't warned you.
Jools 

The bottom line here is this.
do not buy in Catalunya!!!!
As Jools says,listen to us who are pretty much stuck here.
Were not wanted.were not liked by any official office,they only want money.

Also forgot to mention if you buy an illegal build (Almacen with a kitchen, bathroom and bedrooms) and the Government department are made aware of your property (dont upset your Spanish neighbour or he will report you) Do you think the Government will prosecute your local Mayor who turned a blind eye to the build NO. Do you think they will prosecute the builder NO. Do you think they will prosecute the Agent who told you all was ok NO. Do you think they will prosecute the Notary who did the paperwork and conveniently left the room while the black money was handed over NO. BUT THEY WILL PROSECUTE YOU.  Should you fight it NO - if you do you will just be throwing away more money as you will not win, they will not listen to anything you say - you have an illegal build and therefore have broken the law - you will have a fine which could be up to 100,000 euros. My advice go to France.

Ok ok, I think I am beginning to get the picture. :) Thanks to all who have responded, it really is appreciated, without you taking the time and trouble to reply I would in all probability have bought it.

Just to clarify, what does happen when the licence is revoked? Just out of curiosity is it a fine and if so how much or is it demolished or what happens?

The reason that I am still persevering with questions is that I really do like the area and would like to live there but obviously without a cloud hanging over the property.

And finally for now, are village properties having the same problems or are they 'Safe'?


Thanks again.

There is a property in the Tortosa area with a current demolishon order in force,where the Adjuntament have been able to remove a large sum of money from the owners bank,which will be held until the owner does demolish the property, in a set time.
What a nice friendly place Cataloonya is !

[quote author=525540445C5D58340 link=1295365919/20#20 date=1295523928]There is a property in the Tortosa area with a current demolishon order in force,where the Adjuntament have been able to remove a large sum of money from the owners bank,which will be held until the owner does demolish the property, in a set time.
What a nice friendly place Cataloonya is ![/quote]

Yes it does appear so, thanks.

Play it safe and try to find somewhere in Aragon !!

Where at least they do seem to want to encourage people into the area, and do want tourism!!

Sleeper - just for a bit of "balance" on this topic I can say that there are many of us here that have no regrets - so far !). We turned up eleven years ago, spent very little money for a large finca, only used the Notary and, apart from a minor run in over permission for a new roof, have been very happy with our purchase. That said, we have tried to make friends of our neigbours, not built huge extensions and kept ourselves to ourselves.

Things have been tightened in the last few years, laws have been changed or new ones introduced that have affected people trying to make a few bucks to get by and all but stopped any "legal" building in the campo.

Ginestar does have a particular problem relating to permissions "granted" in the past so IF you are still looking make sure that any property comes with a valid cedula, same applies for village houses regardless of location.

Should you buy then don't make the mistake of many Brits by simply building / altering without full permission ( which is very hard to come by ) regardless of who may have told you to just do what you want. It is many of these people who are now unfortunately coming unstuck and stand to lose everything.

Do take the advice and get a good lawyer !

Hi sleeper.  I agree with the above.  It's very easy to fall into the trap of buying something which is not legal to live in.  However, there are legal properties available even if they may be a small percentage of what's advertised.  If I were you, keen on coming to live here but (quite rightly) somewhat alarmed by the comments on here (and they're justified in the main) then I would talk to Ton Battel before you go looking and get him to arm you with the catches to look out for.
I have to say that I've always found the Catalan people friendly, helpful and generous especially if you make the effort to learn Catalan or even Spanish.  Don't be put off, just be very very careful.

Bringing further balance,we too are very happy & settled after 5 years living here having bought 9 years ago. We've made good friends, neighbours are great (except the English ones) and the house is all "legal" thanks to our knowledgeable Catalan contacts. That said, we would prefer to be in Galicia where there are fantastic bargains, fertile soil & water in abundance.
Paul

Totally confused How did Galicia come into the equation?

I think a lot of people came here for a better life in the sun, but in all due respect everyone that bought here in the last 26 years should have had a Cedula provided with the property they bought at the Notarios along with the Esquitura as long as it said Vivienda.

To retrospectively introduce legislation is crass, stupid and more than likely illegal in EU Law but since when has Spain or Catalunya abided with any rules from Brussels.

They are not likely to start Now!!

Since Spain joined the EU they have had massive grants from the EU to provide everyone with basic amenities such as water and electricity, but they have spent all the grants improving Roads, Now they cannot provide water and electricity to people  living in the Campo they have changed the rules, to make it impossible to get a Cedula so you can't live in the countryside and therefore they don't have to provide water and electricity Simples

Isn't Galician dialect harder to learn than Catalan? The winters are harsher. Also Galicia relies on handouts from Catalonian taxes collected. The cows still live below the houses -hot air rises.

Anyway Sleeper I sent you a PM last night

wrote on Jan 20^th, 2011 at 7:35pm:

Isn't Galician dialect harder to learn than Catalan? The winters are harsher. Also Galicia relies on handouts from Catalonian taxes collected. The cows still live below the houses -hot air rises. Anyway Sleeper I sent you a PM last night

Yes thank you Ebrovoice, very informative it was. Will reply shortly, although it won't be as many words :)

With regard to the person who says CADUCITAT DE LA LLICENCIA means revoked, this is not correct.When a person was given a licence to build they are usually given 2 or 3 years to complete the project. After that time the licence finishes that is what Caducitat means . When a project is completed the person should go to the engineer who first did the project for a certificate to say the building has been built to the correct spec. This certificate then goes to the town hall to be registered, untill this is done the town hall has nothing to say the building has been completed and it will, not be registeres in the town hall.Its best not to translate things unless the correct meaning is known.

Again to add balance, there is no reason not to follow your dream of living in Catalunya - provided you find a legal dewlling and do your research.  Many people have purchased legal dewllings and have not experienced any problems.

Just a point - when many unsuspecting buyers purchased property in the area, they didn't necessarily do anything wrong, the problem seems to be the subsequent introduction of legislation which was made retrospective (unfairly I believe).  To those (who may or may not have vested interest) promoting other areas in spain I ask this simple question:  What's to say other areas eg. Aragon won't introduce legislation next week, year or in 10 years time and make it retrospective like the catalans did?  You cant say just because you've got a licence or whatever that you're 100% safe.  Things change!  It's in the lap of the gods my friends for all of us - and it doesn't just apply to catalunya, spain, but everywhere.  Of course on balance, some properties are a no-no from the outset. 

OP, whatever decision you come to - make sure you spend your hard earned cash wisely and take on bord all the advice you are being offered.  If you've  your heart set on the Ginestar area, good for you!... but make sure and find a legal dwelling.

Some people have had problems but perhaps it should be noted that the silent majority haven't so far and are happy with their purchases.

wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 12:23pm:

Again to add balance, there is no reason not to follow your dream of living in Catalunya - provided you find a legal dewlling and do your research.  Many people have purchased legal dewllings and have not experienced any problems. Just a point - when many unsuspecting buyers purchased property in the area, they didn't necessarily do anything wrong, the problem seems to be the subsequent introduction of legislation which was made retrospective (unfairly I believe).  To those (who may or may not have vested interest) promoting other areas in spain I ask this simple question:  What's to say other areas eg. Aragon won't introduce legislation next week, year or in 10 years time and make it retrospective like the catalans did?  You cant say just because you've got a licence or whatever that you're 100% safe.  Things change!  It's in the lap of the gods my friends for all of us - and it doesn't just apply to catalunya, spain, but everywhere.  Of course on balance, some properties are a no-no from the outset.  OP, whatever decision you come to - make sure you spend your hard earned cash wisely and take on bord all the advice you are being offered.  If you've  your heart set on the Ginestar area, good for you!... but make sure and find a legal dwelling. Some people have had problems but perhaps it should be noted that the silent majority haven't so far and are happy with their purchases.

So in your opinion would you consider the following as a NO-NO?

This property does not have a cedula it has a legal license for almacen but from the old laws the same as the other properties in the surrounding area  which were built with the same licenses as this.

Thanks

Almacen = shed. It is a shed on a piece of land intended to be used for storing tools etc. nothing more.  It would only have a Cedula if it was an inhabitable building, sheds aren't classed as habitable buildings. If it is being used/sold as a habitable building then run a mile.

Nigel

Dear Sleeper,

Opinions are like ar5e holes, everybody has one!

It really doesn't matter what any of us think, get a Lawyer to check out the property then you haven't lost anything, it's seems that you want to buy the property anyway, so continuing to churn it up on here wont change anything.

Jools

wrote on Jan 21^st, 2011 at 6:32pm:

Dear Sleeper, Opinions are like ar5e holes, everybody has one! It really doesn't matter what any of us think, get a Lawyer to check out the property then you haven't lost anything, it's seems that you want to buy the property anyway, so continuing to churn it up on here wont change anything. Jools

Hi Jools

Yes I would like to buy the property BUT having listened and taken on board all the advice given on here there is no way I would buy it without getting good legal advice.

Sorry if you think I am churning it up, but after the initial answers there seems to be others who have  different opinions, although to be fair everyone has said 'be careful', which I fully intend to do.

Thanks

In response to Cariad reply.  I agree that if a building is not completed in the alloted 3 years and registered with the Ajuntament then they can cancel the licence.  BUT how many buildings have been built in Ginestar and the Ajuntament have not inspected them, therefore they are not registered but they have not cancelled those licences. The majority were built without Architect Projects (50sq.m or less) therefore they did not need an independant architect - has the Ajuntament architect inspected these properties as they are all illegal buildings - they have all been built with Almacen licences.  The licences cancelled are either properties selected at random by Government officials higher up the chain, or unfinished projects some of which have demolition orders on them. The Ajuntament know that some of the licences that they cancelled were completed buildings.  They were happy to take - and continue to take - taxes from the owners.   They only started to cancel licences once higher up Government officials came on the scene.The Ajuntament web site makes good reading as they post the minutes of their meetings. The silent majority have no problem now but what for the future - may they also be selected at random at a later date!!!   

Have you seen that New Book Cataloonia for Dummies!!

---

Can you buy it Retrospectively?   ;)

Hi Sleeper,
just like to add my pennys worth, We bought a place 5 years ago in Tortosa, slowly doing the place up as money dictates, and hope to move out later this year. Just be carefull and get all the advice you can, and be positive, it's still a good place to live.
Read a book by Martin Kirby, " No going back- journey to Mothers Garden" and his follow -up " Shaking the tree ". Here is a man who tells it like it is, Hogs , warts and all, he has been here 10 years, living in catalunia, with his family. l recommend the book to everyone, a god read. Good luck hope to see you sometime. :)

Hi Sleeper
We bought our place 7 years ago which we use as a holiday bolthole and love it and the area.  Our Catalan neighbours are very friendly even though we communicate is very broken Spanish.  We bought totally in white money and as everybody else says just get good legal advise.  We do have electricity and have access to a well, personally I would only buy a place with electricity and water especially if you wish to use it as a holiday home as you don't want to turn up and try to sort out power and water as soon as you get there.  If the place you were first interested in doesn't have a cedula just keep looking and looking, you will know when it is right, good luck and ENJOY it!!
Debbie