I TAKE IT FROM THE LACK OF POSTINGS TO DO WITH DODGY MAYORS, ESTATE AGENTS AND ILLEGAL BUILDINGS  ,THAT ALL THE AFFECTED PEOPLE HAVE EITHER GIVEN UP ,OR GONE HOME TO THE UK,  OR HAS THEIR BEEN A MIRACULOUS TURNAROUND IN ATTITUDE FROM THE CATALAN AUTHORITIES AND ALL THESE PROPERTIES ARE FINE NOW AND EVERYBODY IS HAPPY, :)
I CERTAINLY STILL AINT HAPPY WITH THE PROBLEMS I HAVE WHICH HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR THE LAST 5 YRS THANKS TO A CERTAIN MAYOR IN GINESTAR AND AN ESTATE AGENT WHO USED TO FLOAT AROUND THE SAME AREA ,I HOPE SHE ISNT STILL FLEECING INNOCENT INCOMERS TO THE AREA, >:(

whats been happening now? I know about the agent i think you mean, we had dealings with her too and I believe she is now in morocco selling property , but think her hubby or partner still hangs around bennifallet drinking.

hi everbody,does anybody know how many people have had to shut up their properties in the ebro area, say ginestar ,mora,benifallet,and head home because they have an almacen which they cant live in and not a legal build which they can,
leaving aside the fact that that the catalan authorities started to clamp down on these illegal builds 4 or 5 yrs ago,
the main issue seems to be that people were told that they could live in them by estate agents and mayors,
who is actually responsible for compensating for all the money that was spent in these areas over the years ,
i think a select few made a lot of money at the expense of quite a few people,
where are all these people now and has everybody just given up and accepted that all their money has gone,
I THINK NOT ! and i also think that if a decent amount of people got together and tried to do something then maybe the authorities will have to listen and do something to resolve the problem for many people ,and that includes the people that are living in buildings that may not be 100% legal who may think that they have been overlooked,
why should the people that caused all these problems be let off ! whether people had lawyers or not when they purchased their properties ,the fact is they were lied to by unlicensed ,unregulated individuals who should have given the right info in the first place ,who do you blame for that ,the catalan authorities ,who must have known what was going on in these areas.
there is so much that needs to be done to fix what has happened here but where do you start,
are all these nice new buildings in the countryside going to be left to fall apart and not get used,it would be a bloody shame if that was the case!

The Generalitat de Catalunya now has a Registre d'Agents immobiliarias de Catalunya.All these agents will have a number ,without this number they are not legal in Catalunya.

Mmm! a bit late now ,whats the old saying ,bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted !
no consolation now for all the people that have been robbed of their life savings and now have been left to try and sort the problems out at their own expense with no guarantee of a satisfactory conclusion ,ie a legal property.
which was the original aim of so many people,
if the authorities can so easily now bring out legislation to regulate estate agents ,why is it so difficult to admit that they were wrong and now legalize some of the mess that the agents and the mayors that were there before have caused!
like a blanket amnesty on the properties that were built during this crazy time ,

wrote on Apr 11^th, 2011 at 12:19pm:

Mmm! a bit late now ,whats the old saying ,bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted ! no consolation now for all the people that have been robbed of their life savings and now have been left to try and sort the problems out at their own expense with no guarantee of a satisfactory conclusion ,ie a legal property. which was the original aim of so many people, if the authorities can so easily now bring out legislation to regulate estate agents ,why is it so difficult to admit that they were wrong and now legalize some of the mess that the agents and the mayors that were there before have caused! like a blanket amnesty on the properties that were built during this crazy time ,

i totally agree with what you are saying :)i have said from the start all propertys built up until lets say the end off 2009 should all be made legal so all this mess can have an end put to it .our ajuntament is taking taxes from us for the lands  and the houses but still insist on calling them garages ::)

I am a member of a ladies group in the Mora area ( about 35 of us ) that meet twice a month hopefully to help each other, exchange news and ideas, and also to chat in general. Many of the ladies are in similar situations regarding property, and we are trying to find a way forward on the issue, as the situation seems to be getting more urgent.

We have been informed that 4 householders in this area have now be denounced and ordered to leave there homes.

We are thinking of sending a small delegation to the British consulate in Barcelona, to discuss the situation that many people are in. If there is anyone on the forum, that could assist us, or would like to be involved, maybe we could meet up, and move forward as a larger group.
Fortunately my property doesn't come under this umbrella, but i do feel deeply for everyone that this is effecting, and I hope we can all stand together on resolving the issue. 100's and 100's of properties must be effected in this small area, and I don't think we can afford to just sit back and let it happen.As previously mentioned, we are talking about peoples life savings here, and there but the grace of god, go I.  Jan x  :)

hi ,if there is to be a meeting count me in ,its about time the authorities listened to common sense,if they had kept a closer eye on what was going on in their area in the first place none of us would be in this position now,it was their appointed representatives that were partly responsible for some of what has happened anyway in some areas .

wrote on Apr 12^th, 2011 at 11:07am:

hi ,if there is to be a meeting count me in ,its about time the authorities listened to common sense,if they had kept a closer eye on what was going on in their area in the first place none of us would be in this position now,it was their appointed representatives that were partly responsible for some of what has happened anyway in some areas .

same here count me in too

"The Generalitat de Catalunya now has a Registre d'Agents immobiliarias de Catalunya.All these agents will have a number ,without this number they are not legal in Catalunya."

Last week I noticed a shop/office in the village that is NOT an estate agent,still has half a dozen finca's up for sale.
This law will never be enforced,at least not for the local Catalooian locals !

;) hi again. Re my Previous Posting.  I am fairly new to this forum, and not sure how spread out you all are. Our Mora group meets again on Monday morning, 18th April.
I will find out if we could arrange an open meeting on that date at our venue in Mora, It would be good to know just how many forum members would be interested in participating to discuss the way forward. It would be great to have someone on board that speaks good Catalan/ Spanish, in case we decide that the first step should be local adjuntaments and not the British Embassy.

PS. Is there any other towns that are denying British people the right of a padron. Here in  Mora D Ebre you can only get one if you live in a legal house,with an address, not a P.O box, and i am told that this breaches our human rights.. It means of course that they cannot get  health care, and there children are not allowed to go on school trips, as they don't have cap salut. It seems that the law in Ginestar is different and everyone i know there can have , or have got a padron.  :) Jan  ;)

Good evening

If anyone's interested, a few words about the agent registry in Catalonia:

Since March 2010 estate agents in Catalonia are required to register on the Generalitat’s AICAT registry. Most have already done so, particularly those that belong to professional associations like API or APEI. Some smaller Spanish agencies may not have registered yet, but in my opinion this doesn’t automatically mean they are unprofessional or will disappear.

I have not heard if the Generalitat have started contacting non-aicat agents yet. They certainly don’t appear to have carried out any advertising. So some non-Spanish agents may still be completely unaware of the need to register.

Agencies located outside Catalonia (whether in other regions of Spain or elsewhere) that sell property in Catalonia are not required to register, neither are agents that only sell property on an occasional basis (quite a few retired agents would fall into this category, as would professionals in other fields that are perfectly capable of organising a property sale).

To become an aicat agent one has to:

-      Have at least 4 years’ proven professional experience or possess the appropriate qualifications*
-      Have civil responsibility insurance and a bank guarantee to demonstrate solvency
-      Have an office where the public can visit you (in theory you can work exclusively over the internet and have a home office but in practice it is hard to get the bank guarantee and is much more expensive. In my case, I stopped working from home and rented a small office.)
-      Adhere to the aicat professional code and procedures

*Certain professions don’t have to do this: lawyers, architects, economists, engineers, etc

More info (in Catalan) and a list of registered agents are available at www.agenciahabitatge.cat

The British Consulate in Barcelona have taken an interest in the cédula de habitabilidad problems and I understand they have had a series of meetings with the the Generalitat about this issue, including one with new president Artur Mas.

Additionally, the British Embassy in Madrid now has a consultant working on property-related problems, liasing with the Spanish authorities. This is a positive step in my view as formerly, the Consulate's stance always appeared to be limited to 'sorry but we cannot get involved'.

The Consul told me that they cannot champion individual cases but it seems to me it is well worth contacting them.

I think they will be specially interested to hear of cases where UK nationals are being denied registry on the padrón, access to healthcare, schooling, etc.

Finally, don't forget that the official channel for any complaint about the Catalan administration is the 'Sindic de Greuges'. You can do this in English on their website, see http://www.sindic.cat/en/page.asp?id=1

Hope this helps!

Jeff
(aicat agent number 2.671  :))

Thanks for all your useful information Jeff.  :)

hi all,the posting from jeff is usefull information ,but we need information on how to claim compensation for being mis-sold from so called agents and any mayor that was involved in mis-selling properies before all this new legislation came out.
how can somebody sell properties ,tell people that they can do certain things ,"no problem" was a saying i certainly heard many times when i asked all the right questions about what i could and couldnt do,so where has all the money that these agents made from so many people ,including myself, go !
its about time the catalan authorities brought certain individuals to task OR LEGALISE THE PROPERTIES THAT THEY HAVE ILLEGALY SOLD !
how long has this nonsense meant to go on before somebody sees sense and fixes this problem that continues to carry on.

hi all , i see its gone all quiet again on this subject  :(,i give up !  >:(

This is the latest information that i have found . :)
            makes some interesting reading
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a little update about the dreaded Cedula situation. A brief meeting took place in El Perelló recently where the British Consul from Barcelona explained the current state of affairs. A couple of points first though:

1.       Origins. There is speculation that this whole mess has come about because the Spanish government have received money from the EU to be used to provide services like electricity and mains water to all legal dwellings. Having misused this funding, they have brought in the requirement for a cedula so that previously legal homes are no longer regarded as such and therefore are not entitled to the services mentioned. This obviously applies mainly to properties that are not on urbanisations. This is not being admitted by anyone in authority, but does make some sense.

2.       It must be emphasized that property issues such as this do not fall within the remit of Embassy or Consular staffs. However, with so many from the community adversely affected, both the British Embassy in Madrid and our own Consul in Barcelona have stepped in to make the Spanish government aware – in no uncertain terms – of the worries that this situation has brought to the expat community (obviously not just the British). So where are we now?

The Embassy and Consul are seriously concerned about the situation. The Embassy has had talks at the very highest levels with the Spanish Government, expressed grave concerns about this issue and received assurances that something will be done to resolve it. Following that, the Consul has had meetings with the Catalunyan Government to discuss what steps can be taken.

Initially at least, the Consulate are concentrating their efforts in seeing that changes are made to the law so that people who bought properties completely legally, using lawyers and following all of the correct procedures, but who now find that they can’t obtain a cedula, can receive one. This is not going to happen overnight. I think that we all know how long it takes politicians to get moving to correct injustice, not just here in Spain but globally. The Consul feels that it could take a year or longer before any change to the law occurs. They will keep up the pressure in any way that they can, including cooperating with the Consular staffs of other nations similarly affected.



A final point is that the Madrid Embassy is taking this so seriously, that it has actually taken on a new full-time member of staff whose remit is to keep up to date on property issues and also to act as liaison with members of the European Parliament who are also applying pressure on the Spanish Government to get this confusing mess sorted out.

hi everyone, as i have said before the cedula situation is one thing ,but what about all us suckers that listened to the estate agents pitch telling us we could build houses where it is obvious that we couldnt ,dont forget that also in my position the local mayor came to my land before i bought and reassured me that i could build legally there,and now after wasting a fortune i am told i shouldnt have,
the cedula doesnt apply to me or im sure many others too in the same position as me ,
who is going to compensate the likes of us,as i have said many times before the agent and the mayor should be accountable for all our losses,especially in the ginestar area,i dont know about other areas,

Just for info Gyronut do you know that the local elections are taking place in May.  There are two candidates for Mayor in Ginestar - the present Mayor and the previous Mayor.  Watch this space!!!! I wonder who will be re-elected.

Hi. I live in a slightly different area, nearer to Amposta.
I don´t understand some of the problems being talked about.
How are they proving that you live in your Almacen´s? I have heard that after 6 years they can not do anything about illegal builds, is that not true?
Information seems to be different everywhere, which doesn´t help. ::)
Also, why do we need Cedula´s? Are they not just another tax like vivienda. As far as I know you can still sell without one.

How the rules have been interpreted in different areas has created some of the problems,along with bringing in new laws and applying them retrospectively,as is the case with the Cedula.
Certain areas have got into big problems by issuing planning consents for rural properties and have now used the cedula to dig themselves out of holes,at the expense of Rural property owners !

I just flew back to Spain (the late spring bank holiday lived up to expectations - cold, wet, windy grey, boy I'm glad to be back!!!!).

Anyway, in the Easyjet mag I saw an advert from a company about dodgy estate agents, builders etc...

I know nothing about the company so can't endorse them in any way but if anyone does try this then let those with problems know the result.

www.bladedisputeresolution.com email: enquiries@bladedisputeresolution.com tel (uk) 0845 3032351

Good luck!

Nigel

Nigel the site comes up as no web site address

I have also tried to look for the web page, and found it was not available.
I looked at Home Page, and found that they have/had an office in Lincoln, but again could not get any info, on web pages!

HI. Thanks Nigel, the site does work, and very interesting.
Terry.

Beware false Prophets!!!  (Beware those who profit falsely.)  'Nuff said?

see
http://belegal.com/forums/showthread.php?77-European-Mediation/page7

http://belegal.com/forums/showthread.php?77-European-Mediation/page8

Oh yes... and on page 9 it appears that he replies describing himself (twice) as a 'busnessman' as opposed to a businessman.  This is the first occasion I have come across of a lawyer (LLB (Hons.)) being so bad at spelling as opposed to the occasional typo!

I smell a rodent - and my nose is finely attuned to such things!

'He' being Toby Gebhard by the way for those for whom perhaps it is not 'nuff said.  Google him!

wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 5:38pm:

Just for info Gyronut do you know that the local elections are taking place in May.  There are two candidates for Mayor in Ginestar - the present Mayor and the previous Mayor.  Watch this space!!!! I wonder who will be re-elected.

Anyone know what the outcome of the election was?

PSC-PM Candidate got in, who ever that was
http://www.municat.gencat.cat/index.php?page=Eleccions&mostraEns=4306720002

Looks like the current Mayor has been re-elected.

http://www.municat.gencat.cat/index.php?page=Eleccions&mostraEns=4306720002&accio=composicio

hi all, this is my first reply on your forum,we have just bought a finca in ginestar, i did a lot of googleing prior to jumping in but did not find anything like the information in this thread, i am now concerned i might have bought a field we did use an estate agent in ginestar who to be fair answered every question i threw at her and did far more than we would have expected, we used an noitre in moira who seemed professional and we are very happy with our purchase which was built in 2005 and that was the reason it has not got a cedula we where told, even so it is worrying when you read the stories of people conned, how do i know if our property is legal i have met the original architect it is registered with ginestar council we do have deeds but as yet we have not received them (only finalised 2 weeks ago )it appears to be legal and above board but how do i find out for sure

Hi Robo. Your best bet is to check with the Land Registry, to see if your building is registered, don't know where,maybe Mora.
Terry.

How do you define a 'finca'.  A finca is a farm not necessarily a building.  All of the licences from the Ajuntament are for Almacens.  An Almacen is a building for you to store your farm equipment.  Many Almacens have been built as bungalow and people are living in them but they are all illegal.  That said it does not mean that you will have any trouble.  The regional government have visited several properties which now have demolition orders issued by the Ajuntament (the same office which originally gave permission to build and were aware that bungalows were being built).  If your property was not one of the ones selected then I doubt you will have any trouble as the goverment do not have the money to investigate Ginestar any more.  It is just sad for the people that have been visited as they only did what everybody else did. Where in Ginestar have you bought as I do know which properties have problems.

Why, Oh, Why do so many people come here and don't bother to use an independent solicitor who can give help and advice about the legality of property before deciding to purchase it.
Hope in your case, that all is O.K.
Ginestar is a known, No go area!

we bought at poligono 4 its up the road past the olive press over the main road then straight up the track its not the one past the cemetery, we did use a solicitor

Hopefully then, everything is all O.K. for you, having used an independent solicitor.  A  lot of other people, in that area,
are having problems and have spent a lot of money only to find out that property is not legal etc.

Without you having to give too much away about the actual location of your property on this forum you can look to see if the previous owners registered it at Basa. To do this go to www.goolzoom.com
On the drop down menu
Direccion - Poligono y Parcela
Provincia - Tarragona
Municipio - Ginestar
In the next 2 small boxes first put in your poligon then in the next your parcela number if you know it.  Then click the icon at the end
This should now show your land and if there is a small box on it that will be your property.
It should also come up with your Catastro number and if you click on it you can see what the Hacienda have your property down as.  I know they changed all the property registered with Basa to RESIDENTIAL - but they also did that to the ones with demolition orders on it so it still does not make it legal it only means they can now charge you residential tax.  Please do not think I am running the area down just stating the facts.
It you dont know your parcela number you can still locate it on the goolzoom map just look over Parcela 4 and you should be able to tell which is your plot.

cheers lazydaze, i have followed the advice above but can only find a reference to rustica, our house is not shown but none of the other houses are shown including the road so i will now email the estate agent and see what she has to say cheers for the input

wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2011 at 10:08pm:

...... we did use a solicitor

Why don't just ask your solicitor?

A finca is a plot of land not neccesarily a farm. a townhouse has a finca number etc too
Bruixot

It would be interesting to see what reply you get from your Agent - perhaps you should post her reply on this forum - I expect you will get some feedback to her response, then you can decide for yourself if she has given you a truthfull reply.  You said you used a solicitor - was it an independent solicitor or just the notery that the Agent recommended.  They try to steer you clear of independent solicitors telling you it is a waste of money and you do not need to use one!!!!!!!. 

Just an after thought I hope you are not sitting worrying over this, you have most likely bought a farm shed and not a house, but as long as you didnt buy it for an investment, and didnt pay a lot. Then just enjoy it as the area is very nice.

it is worrying although by u.k. standards we paid buttons for it but it was all we had we did use a noitre although i have asked the question is it legal over 7 times and had the same answer from 3 different people, i did ask for a cedula but was told as it was built in 2005 it did not need one, i did as much research as possible before buying and did not find any problems but i did hear of other problems in ginestar, i am told the local council own the maintain the road we use for access and the property has an address but this does not show up on goolzoom, i am still waiting for a reply from the estate agent, cheers for all the replies

Robo,
Did you actually use an independent solicitor??
If so there shouldn't be any problem/s.  Get in touch with them if you are still worried about the matter.

i have just had a reply from the agent the house is legal and has a license she also says the Spanish take years to update the maps so its no surprise that our property and other are not shown,but she has assured me we are all above board and legal, she said the solicitor made an point of explaining we where buying the land and house but her English was not great and my Spanish is not at all (as yet ) thanks for all the replies

If, what the Estate agent says is correct,why were you not given the house license and Cedula by the Notaire on completion of the purchase ?
If you have not signed the final papers yet, my advice would be DO NOT SIGN until you see it written in the Escritura that you are buying a legal house,with the necessary licence.

oh dear ,our first house we bought we were told it was legal but the local ajuntiment say no when we went to ask for a cedula they say armagan (the build date is in the 1979s and is recorded in the back of our deeds )so of we go with the deeds to the norteria in tortosa showed them the deeds told them what we were told in the village only to be told YES IT IS LEAGLE so the BIG PROBLEM here is one tells you one thing and someome tells you another .also the nortaria is a leagle person so she as to tell you as it is she cannot tell you any lies .one day i say one day all this mess will be sorted we all hope .SORRY IF MY SPEELING IS NOT CORRECT :)

Hi Robo so the agent says your HOUSE is legal.  Ask to see the planning permission from the Ajuntament (not the plans from the Architect).  I bet it says permission for an Almacen.
The previous Mayor was giving out permissions for 50sq.m Almacens by the dozen in 2005.  Some people got this permission and built bigger.  If however you wanted to legally build an Almacen over 50 you needed an Architect but it was still an Almacen and not a house.  Also the plans would not look anything like what was actually built. As I said previously you may never have any trouble but you should have been told the permission would have been for an Almacen not a house.  Almacens do not need a Cedular.  Would you still have bought if you had been told the truth, possibly not and that is why the Agents do not tell you.  Anyone who registered with Basa in 2005 would by now be on the maps, I know people that registered after that and their property is on the map. The majority of people have not registered to save paying the extra tax.

it is only 50 meters square we have been told that we will have to pay around 60 euros a year tax also 1 month ago the architect went to the local council to sign of the house by this i think they mean registering, we where told we will get the deeds when everything is sorted probably on our next visit

If you go to the Base office they will tell you if the house is registered or if you are paying only for the land. We only found out our house wasn't registered when we went to the Base and asked if we could pay for the house. We were surprised when they told us it wasn't registered as the Ajuntament said it was!! It was easy to register , they will tell you what is needed . Hope this helps :D

How recently did you register? I asked base last year and they said I needed architects plans among othrr things.
Bruixot

we are not back over until mid to end of february things will have to Waite till then, we have a c.d. of pictures of the house when under construction i think the architect is on one of the pictures but i have met him but only briefly

Hi and welcome to the area.  I hope all works out for you and the house is legal.  Maybe some of the more experience members can answer this question - why would a house built in 2005 NOT have a cedula?  My understanding is that all habitable residential property should have one - have I missed something?

Hi Bruixot, It was about 5yrs ago , we never needed the architect plans then altough we did have them. Things have changed I suppose since then.

If the Estate Agents and the owner of the property want a sale then they should pull their finger out and present you with all the correct paperwork. Why should you be doing all the work? Tell them there are plenty of other properties for you to look at. If they can't be bothered to get the correct paperwork for you to prove that this is a legal dwelling and not just an almacen then they are clearly trying to hide something. By all means buy your land with almacen if that is what you want but do it with your eyes open to what this means and pay for what you get i.e. agricultural land with an almacen ( store ) that you may be able to do something with and not a house with a cedula that will clearly be worth much more.

Did you get a copy simple when you went to the notario, this is an exact copy of the deeds which can take 3 months to come through.This will state exactly what you have brought.