Am I the only one that gets hacked off to see the stupid banner on this forum that says Catalunia isn't Spain?  If it isn't Spain then where the heck is it.   Of course it's in Spain.  It's the half baked Catalan leaders that want it to be independent and divorced from Madrid that are queering the pitch for their voters just to support their own self interestd.

THIS FORUM SHOULD NOT BE POLITICAL

  Discuss......................

"This forum shouldn't be political" ...discuss

I don't know why it shouldn't be. As it isn't publically funded I'd have thought that the forum can be anything that Nigel wants it ot be.

Comparing English/Welsh with Castillian/Catalan isn't comparing like with like at all.  All state schools in Catalunya teach in Catalan and (as far as I know) only offer Castillian as a second language.  Catalan is recognised as a separate language by the EU. All street and shop signs are in Catalan and any communications that you receive from the Generalitat , CatAigua etc are in Catalan.   For all these reasons and more I find it makes my life much easier to be able to speak Catalan, which is certainly appreciated by the people that I talk with in the village and in Tortosa.

Chris, I would hope that everyone would be supportive of you speaking Castillian, they might prefer to speak Catalan amongst themselves but at least you are making an effort to talk in a language that they understand!

I would like to add that I am not saying that speaking Catalan is 'better' than speaking Castillian.  Just that it is better for me.

That's a great link Roger and I must admit that I had been told that Catalan was an official  EU language.  It was probably wishful thinking!

There are some interesting statistics here: http://ec.europa.eu/education/languages/archive/languages/langmin/euromosaic/es5...

Proficiency has increased rapidly since 1975. Comprehension increased from 81% in 1981 to 94% in 1991, spoken ability from 64% (1986) to 68% (1991), reading ability from 61% to 68% and writing ability from 32% to 40%. Levels of language proficiency are, moreover, highest among young people aged between 10 and 19. According to a recent study, 74% of adults can speak Catalan, 65% can read it and 41% can write it. Catalan is the main language of 50% of those surveyed, whereas Spanish is the main language of 49%. Some 10% of the people who can currently speak Catalan spoke Spanish as their habitual language in infancy, but have subsequently adopted Catalan as their language of habitual use. Most Catalan speakers use the language in all daily situations. According to another source, 54% of adults use Catalan at home, 11% use Catalan and Spanish and 34% use Spanish.

"By the way, if anything legal comes along, you do have the right to insist that the form you sign is written in English by an approved organisation. Whether or not the trained monkey who gives you the form will comply with this or whether you get any joy out of their boss, is another thing completely."
Is that really true?  Because our catalan friends who have helped us translate official documents have trouble themselves understanding official 'jargon'. If we could get letters in English that would be a small miracle  

The sign on the top right of the site is actually correct! Catalunya is not Spain - It is IN SPAIN!

Personally I believe it is an academic discussion, not a political one...

In today's international village it is simply fatalistic to try force a language on people. There was actually a law that all signs, forms, etc had to be bi-lingual. They all used to be a few years ago but recently the nationalistic Catalan government has flouted this and pushed on with its own social engineering and empire building exercise. It is all good and well saying that they were an independent Republic 200 years ago, etc. but half of France was also a part of England a few hundred years ago too! Where do you draw the line? You cannot live in the past.

Making it the first language in schools was simply narrow minded. Now they have kids who speak Catalan and parents who have to take Catalan lessons to talk to them and grandparents who speak only Castillian! Ironically, however, it has become "cool" amongst catalan kids to speak Castellano (due to all the spanish / latin amercan pop stars).

So when a Catalan kid becomes a brilliant doctor, where else is he/she going to practice? Andorra? Or is that just a very clever ploy to prevent a brain drain from Catalunya?
Putting an extra language on kids to learn is already showing its toll - Catalunya has one of the worst ESO (GCSE equivalent) attainment records in Spain, never mind Baccalaureate (A level).

I appreciate the pendelum needs to swing as they come out from under the shadow of the Franco era, but has anyone done the math. Can Catalunya sustain itself as a nation? They would struggle to even assemble a half decent national football team, never mind be part of a historic win like last week's Euro final.

It is certainly their choice though. Big fish little pond or little fish big pond??? But what happens when the little pond dries up??? They have to ask the fish in the big pond for some water? That's exactly what happened two months ago!

All I know is that it has made the job of settling here that much harder and I am seriously looking to move just a little further south... I wonder how many other people decide that it is just not worth the extra hassle before even coming over...? There could be a reason why property is relatively cheaper here...

The bottom line is simple: tourism is the life blood of the region and Catalunya must become more user friendly!

QUOTE Much the way as Norway, Ireland, Finland, Iceland and a good few others I imagine - regardless of how many people sneer at their incompetent football teams, 'half-baked politicians', and 'half-trained monkeys'. How does Malta survive?
END QUOTE

They go out of their way to speak foreign and more widely spoken languages.  Show me a Dane, a Nederlander, an Icelander who doesn't speak English and who wants to practice same at every given opportunity.  Not so with the Catalans.  QED.

As I said, tourism (and property) are becoming the life blood of Catalunya and Spain. As it is, the locals are worried by the slow down in agriculture and manufacturing industries, as tourism has increased over the past decades since Franco's demise. I was trying to explain to the Catalan bank manager how this is a natural process in Western countries (he still could not get his head around it).

Once again, you cannot live in the past. It is certainly up to the Catalans themselves (and any other residents like us!) to decide what they want. Personally I just think it will best for them if they 'internationalise' themselves a bit more. If they prefer to remain farmers, that is certainly their choice and good luck to them, just as it would then be my choice to move on...

I agree with ColinB, most other countries, with similar populations to the catalan speaking world, have gone out of their way to accomodate and speak an international language. (Tourists, visitors and settlers are treated with joy and excitement even - ever seen that here?) I have noticed attempts by the catalans to replace Spanish with English as the second language.... They need to decide and move on....

Speak to any true European, like the Dutch, and they simply cannot understand how a person can speak only one language. In Holland there is certainly no need to speak any other language, but they all do! They also relish the opportunity to use that other language...

That said, I know some people who speak four languages, and NOT ONE of them is English! Also keep in mind Spanish is the 3rd most spoken language in the world. English is a distant fourth!

Rant over...

excuse me its us the english who dont or wont speak other languages not the spanish or catalan people.most of if not all of the people we have come across know some english.but they will only use it if they like the person they are talking to  so what dose that tell you

That they are childish? FFS

Jisalik according to this http://www.krysstal.com/spoken.html English is second. However, the general drift of your message is correct.

Most of the Catalans that i have spoken to, about Tortosa, agree that it has lost its way and has been hampered by self interest from politicians and has been isolated, in its thinking for far too long. Hence the brain drain to Barcelona of the best students.

Oh and btw Nen, these conversations have been conducted in Catalan, Spanish and English, sometimes all in one sentence. Now thats multilingual.