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 25 Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed (Read 37778 times)
furbydoggie
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Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
May 25th, 2010 at 5:10pm
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Hi All,
A friend living between Tortosa & El Perrello is in need of some urgent advice.  The position is that - like many expats - she decided to renovate and extend the property on her finca.....without obtaining the proper permissions and licences etc.  Not clever - I know.  We've already done the "I told you so" line. 

Following a visit earlier this year from the Agents Rural, she now finds herself facing a CRIMINAL court case next month, she sought legal advice and was simply told to demolish the building before the court appearance.........??????

If she does not appear in court on the day - she faces imprisonment.  She does not know what to expect, what the fines are likely to be and if prison is a real possible outcome. The woman is understandibly very upset and doesn't what to do.  Is there anyone out there who has gone through a similar situation and could maybe advise her.  I'm not even in the same country so am of little help to her.  She doesn't have any internet access so can't post herself.  If anyone can share any wisdom - please do.  She knows she has done wrong but doesn't know how to approach this pending court case.  She's about to lose the home she's struggled to build for herself but furthermore it looks like she'll be issued with a fine she'll be unable to pay. 

Has anyone out there any experience or knowledge to share?
  
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PaulH
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #1 - May 25th, 2010 at 7:03pm
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Is her name Maddy, in which case my friend is on her case
  
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furbydoggie
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #2 - May 25th, 2010 at 8:43pm
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Hi PaulH, I think we're on the same page.  Hopefully your friend is in a position to give some advice/support.  I imagine it's a very lonely place when you're taking on the entire spanish system with all its associated red tape.  Have you any idea what the likely outcome is in these scenarios?

It seems incredible that the authorities are not content to destroy your home but want to dig in the boot and brand you a criminal AND levy heavy fines as well!

I know every country has planning laws and restrictions, but I never thought such callous punitive measures could be employed by an EU member state in the 21st century.  As bad as Ireland is (and it is bad!), they would never be so threatening. 

Furthermore, these measure don't seem to be implemented throughout Spain, it seems to be mainly in southern Catalunya and in parts of Andalucia.  I've never heard of this happening say in other areas.

Everyone of us has a vested interest in putting a stop to this madness, the way things are going - the spanish government could at any time decide to introduce rediculous retrospective planning laws which could result in none of our properties being "safe" - be they in urban or rural areas.  Buildings that were ok and legal in the past can with a stroke of the pen be rendered illegal and be pulled down. 

Surely whats required now is for the powers that be to allow an amnesty on existing dewllings and restrict building/development from a specific future date so that people know the risks they are taking if they contravene the law. 

The Spanish/Catalans always displayed a healthy disregard for officialdom in the past and simply went ahead and build/renovated their properties.  I know I entertained the thought of adding a roof terrace to my townhouse but when I checked with the ajuntament - was told that they would not give permission.  My Catalan neighbours told me to go ahead and do it - everyone does it.  Needless to say I didn't bother and am glad I didn't. 

I'd love to know how many people are affected by the current clamp-down.  I'm sure there are many out there in similar positions.  Hopefully people will let their voices be heard.  The cedula situation in the Campo is crazy and can't go on.
  
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Tony
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #3 - May 25th, 2010 at 9:41pm
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Quote:
It seems incredible that the authorities are not content to destroy your home but want to dig in the boot and brand you a criminal AND levy heavy fines as well!



Buildings that were ok and legal in the past can with a stroke of the pen be rendered illegal and be pulled down. 


What I cannot understand is how anyone's home can be taken away from them in this day and age.  Surely it must be illegal in Europe to put people onto the streets, so why do our MEP's get onto this situation and demand that it is sorted out.  It must be against that most popular legislation, Human rights, to take someone's home away.  Surely the most basic of these must be the right to a home ?
  
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jools
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #4 - May 25th, 2010 at 9:51pm
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I imagine that if I bought a piece of rural land in the UK and built a house on it or renovated something already there without asking permissions/town halls/Architects/authorities!

The outcome would be exactly the same.............no?

So why does everybody think they can do it here.

As I've said before, this is Spain/Catalunya not Guatemala.

So if you screw the laws, you get screwed back

Jools
  
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PaulH
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #5 - May 25th, 2010 at 10:10pm
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Direct advice soon on its way to her. There is some confusion as to the exact charges and needs consultation, there appears to be something about vehicles dumped on the land. Somebody seems to have a grudge.
  
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furbydoggie
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #6 - May 25th, 2010 at 10:17pm
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Jools, while I totally agree with your general opinion, I can't help buy feel sorry for such severe punishment being meeted out by the authorities.  Surely in the UK, people don't get thrown in prision for planning violations?  Yes, it is conveivable that the property can be seized and/or demolished but to impose huge fines and incarcerate people? 

But I think we're missing the main point - who's to say that down the line other laws will be enacted rendering currently legal properties illegal. 

I don't think those of us who try to keep our transactions above board can afford to be smug cos anything can happen in the future.

The estate agents/solicitors/notarios etc. who willingly took money from naive buyers surely have a case to answer as well.  Most buyers make it clear at the outset that their intention when buying fincas is to live on the properties.  I don't believe that in all cases that those involved made it crystal clear to these buyers that it would not be possible to do so.
  
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Roger
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #7 - May 25th, 2010 at 10:40pm
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It's not just Brits losing out, there are plenty of Catalans nad Spanish as well. Unfortunately as there has been so much building, the authorities are only now getting chance to move. Primarily due to the amount of black money flying about. This is clearly impacting the economy and the government want it back. Believe it or not there are Catalans in Sympatica that cannot get the building licences.

This mayor is the tip of a very large iceberg.

http://www.almanzora-au.org/PressReleases/sept%202009/sorbas%20mayor%20accused%2...
  
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jools
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #8 - May 25th, 2010 at 10:53pm
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The threat of a prison sentence seems to be a scare tactic, they have used that before on numerous occasions, recently last year when they threatened to demolish, fine and imprison the owners of 3 illegal builds, including a token Spanish owner.

We helped a Dutch family last year, who were also threatened with a prison sentence, but they haven't even been fined, it was blown out of court.

Jools
  
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fatphil
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #9 - May 26th, 2010 at 10:12am
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Jools,
You state that these are just scare tactics being used,but now seem to be ignoring the fact that a house on the Delta WAS DEMOLISHED last year !
Do you know if that property had the correct permissions in place to build it ?
As has allready been said,the majority of buyers have been told by estate agents that the property they are buying will be able to be renovated and lived in.
This is clearly, now not true,but Estate agents continue to deceive buyers into believing otherwise,as they would not have hardly any property to sell if they told the truth !
  
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Nosocks
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #10 - May 26th, 2010 at 10:45am
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I concur Fatphil.
I remember reading that the Spaniard who owned that house had been warned not to extend the building but had ignore the warning, He was given a deadline to demolish it himself but chose to ignore the order, So the authorities did it for him and he had to pay for it as well as a fine.

But Jools has already said that the  so-called "Estate Agents" are telling people all sorts of "terminological Inexactitudes"  (with apologies to Churchill  Smiley). It would appear that Jools is right. There should be some form of  licencing required in order to be an estate agent and buyers should make sure they don't forget their brains in the airport when they come over.
  
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Ritaratbag
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling
Reply #11 - May 26th, 2010 at 11:13am
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It all goes back to the same thing, why do people think that  anywhere in Spain, you can do as you wish?
Would you go into a bar in the U.K. and pay someone for a piece of land, house etc?  NO.
Would you use an estate agent, who offers you a solicitor, who is a friend or realtion of theirs? NO.
Would you start to build, or extend a property without permission. NO.
We used an independent English speaking solicitor in Tarragona.
He is even trying to help his previous clients, get cedulas that need them now.
Talking of which everyone here, seems to be in the same boat, with the cedula thing, be it Brits, Catalans, etc.
  
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nen
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #12 - May 26th, 2010 at 12:31pm
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i think to solve all the legal and none legal houseing problems the goverment as to come up with a date and say all properties built up untill now will all be made legal and any after that date if built without planing will be demolished .we have 3 properties out off about 100 on our planes only ours is legal most off the others belong to the locals we have one other on the planes up for sale with all the paperwork but we cant sell it as it as no cedula and we also did what the rest off the locals did built one without planing (i say whats ok for them is ok for us)and as we paid building plot prices then why not.lets face it without people from  all over the world buying properties in spain and bringing a lot off money in then maybe the place would not be as it is .i think we should all be looked after now and not sh..t on as we all have spent a lot off money here............had my rabbit now off to do some work
« Last Edit: May 26th, 2010 at 1:34pm by »  
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jools
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #13 - May 26th, 2010 at 2:54pm
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I heard through the grapevine that the Spanish family only ever had permission to build an almacen, and that the case was dragged in and out of court for over 3 years, finally having the house demolished.

Surely this should be a warning to anyone thinking of buying a rustic finca in Catalunya now, and no, it's not because I have an estate agency based in Aragon, before anyone jumps in!

Only last week, a man who came out with me to look at property in Aragon 2 years ago called to ask if I could help him because he was in so much trouble.

After me explaining all the problems about building in Catalunya, he bought a finca of 1.5 hectares behind the hospital in Mora d'Ebre for 100k with a part built almacen of approx 200 m2.

A Dutch couple operating illegally as an estate agent/casa rural and building company sold it to him, and said that he could finish the house for another 50k.
   
He paid only 50k on the escritura, the rest in cash, and the building money in cash, because he was told 'this is how we do it in Spain'.

The house isn't finished, the 'builder' wants more to finish it, the buyer has 5000k worth of furniture here in storage because he was told the house would be finished by last Christmas.

My Architect went to Mora d'Ebre town hall with this poor man last week, to ask permission to finish renovating the almacen, because the Dutch guy didn't even do that.

They said that no more permissions will be given out, and all the surrounding chalets/villas/houses on neighbouring properties had the permissions in place before the end of 2008, which seems to be the last time you could build there (I dont know for sure, because we dont touch rustic properties in Catalunya for this reason)

The sad ending to this story is that the man has returned to the UK having lost his life's savings, and not knowing what the next chapter of his life will be, but apparently he is taking them to court for compensation.

He asked if I could sell the land, and at least get something for it, because it has mains water, but other than it being a vegetable garden, what is anyone going to pay for it.

If you frequent the car boot sales you will probably have been approached by this couple offering to sell/buy your property.

How many more people have to go through this heartbreak because of people operating illegally and causing so much misery............that's where the problem lies, they have to tell LIES to sell their properties.

I dont know how these people sleep at night, and if anyone wants their names send me a PM and I will gladly give it to you.

Jools
  
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furbydoggie
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Re: Illegal Rural Dwelling - urgent advice needed
Reply #14 - May 26th, 2010 at 4:58pm
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Jools, I'd be interested to know the rationale behind rustic land in Aragon being treated differently by the administration than that in Catalunya?  After all it's all part of mainland spain and is surely subject to the same rules and restrictions?  How come a piece of land which stradles Aragon & Catalunya is treated differently depending on which side of the fence it's on?  Strange or what!  Is there any possibility that some of the refurbs/builds in Aragon could be declared illegal in the future? 

By the way - I wouldn't like anyone to draw the conclusion from my original post that I in any way support any form of Illegal activity, I merely feel sorry for some well meaning people cuaght up in an awful mess.  Personally I try to live by the rules - as far as I am concerned, I'm a guest of the nation.  On the other hand, some would say "when in Rome..." but when they did as the Romans do, were severly punished for it.
  
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